Tuned! 332whp! My Engine Build - Cams, Airbox, LTW Flyhweel & more :)

[STAATS]

Not really. As a general rule you don't want material in your oil. It's bad for the engine. It gets drawn through the head, the cams, all the oil galleys etc. Having foreign material hinders protection and can cause damage. However, this material is essentially an unavoidable biproduct of running an engine in obviously. If you buy into the whole non synthetic idea then you want the wear properties of the oil, but you really don't want the material that comes out because you do not have the protective oil (synthetic) to stop the damage from it. Changing the oil halfway essentially means you retain the same wear properties of the oil you're putting in but it's cleaner.

Personally, I am beyond glad I used synthetic. Earlier in this thread it was said that synthetic would stop the rings from wearing into the bores. Intuitively this sounded wrong, but I didn't know any better. After seeing the oil come out, it's pretty safe to say that is bollocks. Non synthetics offer bugger all protection in these engines with how small the tolerances are and I can't imagine the amount of material it would be carrying after 1000km would be good for the engine. Seems a safe bet to swap it out half way since you're running an oil which will do nothing to stop block and ring material causing damage to polished cam and crank journals at essentially no cost to the non synthetic superstition. Unless the superstition is that you want the non synthetic oil to wear the rings and bore down so that the freed material can wear everything else down in an unmeasurable and unpredictable way, in which case... that seems a little far fetched.

I mean okay sure, you are right, I'm not going to sit here and argue against a true statement of facts - but applying the facts to that level is just like why don't we all always change our oil after every drive? There is a practical limit and I just think the idea that you change oil even earlier than the already extremely quick turn around cycle of 1000kms is somewhat misguided. I mean so what it had a mild metallic sheen? If you took it at 500kms it probs would have had a sheen as well... how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? That's basically the basis for the ~1000km/1000mi run-in period it is a basic balance between how much build up there would be and how acceptable that would be vs how often you flush it... My oil came out with a metallic sheen and came in perfectly acceptable under Oil Analysis. Do you have Oil Analysis from yours to show whether or not the sheen you witnessed was actually of concern or not?
Changing oil sooner than the regularly accepted 1000km/1000mi mark I have only ever seen applied to race engines that are run in on a bench through a specific run-in cycle...

Now obviously the above was a big rant, but at the end of the day it is your engine, I'm not a keyboard warrior trying to convince you to do one thing or another, everyone is perfectly entitles to do whatever they want to their own engine and I fully support that... as crazy as some peoples decisions are (thats not a backhanded dig at you)... I just wanted to provide a ying opinion to your yang statement around oil changes earlier than the regular run in interval... So I'm not here to fight you, just want to provide a counterpoint.

I personally used non-synthetic... but I am not overly attached to any of the superstitions. It was more a practicality and cost thing... Andrew Lang backed the use of synthetic for run-in and the 1000miles run-in period and he was the one who had built my engine... which is somewhat of a funny story on its own as i have actually rebuilt engines (although namely they were CBR600RR motors) before and I didn't rebuild my own vs some of you rebuilding your S54 as your first build haha...

[Thoglan]

STAATS We don't change out oil after every drive because the material build up is minimal. This is not true when breaking an engine in. Especially when running a non synthetic. Given how mine looked with synthetic after 850km, a 500km interval seems more appropriate for non synthetic. At the cost of something like $50 it seems a no brainer for the precaution on an engine that's probably had closing in on 10k spent on it.

Had I taken my oil out at 500km it would have a metallic sheen. Yes. But less. Less risk to the engine. even if it was the case that your oil was full after 500km and you changed the oil on the second interval and it was clear. Then you could have swapped to 10w60 sooner as it appears the break in has essentially done. But even then, getting that oil out of the engine 500km earlier would be worth 50 dollars in my mind.

Atleast for me, changing twice after 500km is well below the 'practical limit' when breaking in an expensive engine that's been 2 years or so in the making for OP. Each to their own I suppose.

[Syfon]

I've now driven ~100km since first start. Changed the oil three times so far. Same oil each time + new filter.

After the first ~30minute run in, I dropped the oil and noticed a decent amount of metallic particles at the bottom of the oil pan. Normal from what I understand as all surfaces ae saying hello for first time.

I went for a ~15km drive followed by dropping the oil again. There were still metal particles, however less than before. I did see 2 or 3 miniscule copper pieces. I can't be sure it isn't from the bearings, however, I did not replace my oil cooler; it was cleaned/flushed by the machine shop and I flushed it again with high pressure water. Maybe there was some left over copper floating in the oil cooler from the spun bearing. Furthermore, I can not be sure how thoroughly the block was cleaned. IMHO it is possible there was still some shit stuck in oil gallies or the cooler.

Went for a decent drive late last night. Up some good size hills, loading it in 3rd & 4th gear up to ~4k rpm, 1/2 - 2/3 throttle. No unusual noises. No knocking.

I'm going to drop the oil tonight and inspect for metal particulate contamination once again. The current lot of oil should have ~100km on it by the time I change it this evening.

For those whom have recently rebuilt their S54, what did you find in the oil after the initial start-up and run, and then after your first drive & oil change?

I have been reading a lot of forums (any and every performance car out there) and a lot of people whom have rebuilt their own motors were finding metallic particles in their oil for up the first 1,0000 miles, although it was less and less with each oil change (some of these people changed their oil 4 or 5 times in that first 1,000 miles to inspect for contamination). Everything I've read suggests this is normal wear as all new surfaces find their place, especially given I'm using a mineral oil allowing surfaces to "bed-in".

I did check my oil with a magnet fyi. No particles are magnetic. My guess is their Aluminium?

I'm speculating a bit here. Just want to be sure this motor won't go bang and need another rebuild...

[Thoglan]

Syfon Sounds pretty much the same as me. Although I only changed once at 850km, more often you change it the better I'm guessing. There was nothing in my oil or at the bottom of my drain pan but definitely a few small flecks in the oil filter. However my oil itself had a definitive metallic sheen, quite glittery. I was concerned by the flecks in my filter and sent some photos to my engine builder who has built these for racecars since they were knew, and he said he was happy with it. My guess is some small metallic debris is very par for the course for these engines. Frequent oil changes are probably best with non synthetic. Sounds like you're doing all the right things, depending on how much material you have in your oil and how long it keeps coming I think you can rest easy.

I'll be doing another change after about 850km again, but even after the first oil change I'm pretty comfortable bashing on it. It's hit red line a fair few times

[STAATS]

I've now driven ~100km since first start. Changed the oil three times so far. Same oil each time + new filter.

After the first ~30minute run in, I dropped the oil and noticed a decent amount of metallic particles at the bottom of the oil pan. Normal from what I understand as all surfaces ae saying hello for first time.

I went for a ~15km drive followed by dropping the oil again. There were still metal particles, however less than before. I did see 2 or 3 miniscule copper pieces. I can't be sure it isn't from the bearings, however, I DID NOT replace my oil cooler; it was cleaned/flushed by the machine shop and I flushed it again with high pressure water. Maybe there was some left over copper floating in the oil cooler from the spun bearing. Furthermore, I can not be sure how thoroughly the block was cleaned. IMHO it is possible there was still some shit stuck in oil gallies or the cooler.

Went for a decent drive late last night. Up some good size hills, loading it in 3rd & 4th gear up to ~4k rpm, 1/2 - 2/3 throttle. No unusual noises. No knocking.

I'm going to drop the oil tonight and inspect for metal particulate contamination once again. The current lot of oil should have ~100km on it by the time I change it this evening.

For those whom have recently rebuilt their S54, what did you find in the oil after the initial start-up and run, and then after your first drive & oil change?

I have been reading a lot of forums (any and every performance car out there) and a lot of people whom have rebuilt their own motors were finding metallic particles in their oil for up the first 1,0000 miles, although it was less and less with each oil change (some of these people changed their oil 4 or 5 times in that first 1,000 miles to inspect for contamination). Everything I've read suggests this is normal wear as all new surfaces find their place, especially given I'm using a mineral oil allowing surfaces to "bed-in".

I did check my oil with a magnet fyi. No particles are magnetic. My guess is their Aluminium?

I'm speculating a bit here. Just want to be sure this motor won't go bang and need another rebuild...

Interesting... I would tend to agree with you that it is probably left over particles as your cleaning was potentially not good enough. If its not magnetic it could be any number of non-ferrous metals in the engine; aluminium, copper, lead, tin, etc. Mine was fresh rebuild and all new parts in the oil system and I had very very minimal particles even when only dropping at 1000miles (which I can objectively confirm through Oil Analysis)... I would strongly recommend if you are going to go through this effort of constant oil changing or flushing that you consider getting Oil Analysis done instead of speculating... its like ~$32/test at ALS Tribology. I bought a 10pack and an extraction pump for like ~$370 and I get a test every time my oil gets changed, Oil Analysis is so much more useful if taken regularly, its very hard to draw conclusions taking no tests and then trying to take one at ~90,000ks to see if you should change Bearings then... very cheap insurance when you are doing the labor yourself. Another interesting point of note is every oil test I have done so far has included the comment that my Oil Change intervals can be extended (including the sample of my run in oil) which means to say that I changed my oil too early... and is why I was providing a counter point to the idea that you do multiple oil changes instead of just the 1000mi oil change... although I didn't consider the fact your base engine spun a bearing and hence was potentially already full of particles... whereas I started with a clean slate.

[chapmans]

I just finished my rebuild too and just dropped the Driven break in oil with about 120 miles on it. I did the progressive loading break in, working up to about 5.5k rpm 2/3 throttle with hills and coasting thrown in.

Am I good to swap to the synthetic 10w60 or should I stay on conventoinal oil for more mileage?

[STAATS]

I just finished my rebuild too and just dropped the Driven break in oil with about 120 miles on it. I did the progressive loading break in, working up to about 5.5k rpm 2/3 throttle with hills and coasting thrown in.

Am I good to swap to the synthetic 10w60 or should I stay on conventoinal oil for more mileage?

Can def go to synthetic now... you could have run synthetic from the start... thats how the OE BMW break-in is done... I personally used a non-synthetic but I mean that was based on various factors such a superstition and convenience not really heavily based on fact. Andrew Lang advises break-in with the oil the engine will run on long term (so synthetic 10W-60) and a ~1000km break in so, between him and BMW chose your poison or pick a superstition haha

[Syfon]

Syfon Sounds pretty much the same as me. Although I only changed once at 850km, more often you change it the better I'm guessing. There was nothing in my oil or at the bottom of my drain pan but definitely a few small flecks in the oil filter. However my oil itself had a definitive metallic sheen, quite glittery. I was concerned by the flecks in my filter and sent some photos to my engine builder who has built these for racecars since they were knew, and he said he was happy with it. My guess is some small metallic debris is very par for the course for these engines. Frequent oil changes are probably best with non synthetic. Sounds like you're doing all the right things, depending on how much material you have in your oil and how long it keeps coming I think you can rest easy.

I'll be doing another change after about 850km again, but even after the first oil change I'm pretty comfortable bashing on it. It's hit red line a fair few times

I've opened up the oil filter after each of the oil changes and there are very few miniscule metallic pieces in there.

Upon dropping the oil for the 4th time last night, it still had metal in it, but it was most definitely a lot less than before.

Currently at ~200km. Will run this oil until I hit 500km at which point I'll drain it again.

Massive learning curve for me and I'm likely being ott anal about it but I just want to be sure.

I've taken her up to 6,000rpm under ~2/3 throttle several times up a hill, followed by letting it engine brake. Bottom end & valvetrain seem happy. Nothing abnormal to report at this stage.

[Syfon]

Interesting... I would tend to agree with you that it is probably left over particles as your cleaning was potentially not good enough. If its not magnetic it could be any number of non-ferrous metals in the engine; aluminium, copper, lead, tin, etc. Mine was fresh rebuild and all new parts in the oil system and I had very very minimal particles even when only dropping at 1000miles (which I can objectively confirm through Oil Analysis)... I would strongly recommend if you are going to go through this effort of constant oil changing or flushing that you consider getting Oil Analysis done instead of speculating... its like ~$32/test at ALS Tribology. I bought a 10pack and an extraction pump for like ~$370 and I get a test every time my oil gets changed, Oil Analysis is so much more useful if taken regularly, its very hard to draw conclusions taking no tests and then trying to take one at ~90,000ks to see if you should change Bearings then... very cheap insurance when you are doing the labor yourself. Another interesting point of note is every oil test I have done so far has included the comment that my Oil Change intervals can be extended (including the sample of my run in oil) which means to say that I changed my oil too early... and is why I was providing a counter point to the idea that you do multiple oil changes instead of just the 1000mi oil change... although I didn't consider the fact your base engine spun a bearing and hence was potentially already full of particles... whereas I started with a clean slate.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Time will tell.

As for oil analysis, I've saved oil samples from the first 4 drops. Will get in touch with this mob in Canning Vale and see what they find.

Yeah when it spun #3 bearing, there was copper flake literally everywhere in the motor. Sump, oil cooler, ofh, etc.. Harris hot-tubbed & cleaned every component. How well is anyone's guess. I did flush the oil cooler again myself. My guess is as good as anyone's at this stage, however I believe it's left of shit in the motor.

[Syfon]

I just finished my rebuild too and just dropped the Driven break in oil with about 120 miles on it. I did the progressive loading break in, working up to about 5.5k rpm 2/3 throttle with hills and coasting thrown in.

Am I good to swap to the synthetic 10w60 or should I stay on conventoinal oil for more mileage?

Many people have differing opinions here, and mine is stay with a mineral oil for the first 1,000km (600miles), and continue to drive it about loading it up in 3rd/4th/5th gears up hills with fresh mineral oil.

I'm just going on what others have told me re mineral oil. I'm sure you'll be fine switching to 10w60 fully synthetic oil now, so long as you've followed the correct procedure re loading the motor to get the piston rings to seat.

[Thoglan]

I just finished my rebuild too and just dropped the Driven break in oil with about 120 miles on it. I did the progressive loading break in, working up to about 5.5k rpm 2/3 throttle with hills and coasting thrown in.

Am I good to swap to the synthetic 10w60 or should I stay on conventoinal oil for more mileage?

I ran synthetic 10w60 the entire time. First startup all the way through. As per the recommendation of my engine builder, who is probably the most well regarded BMW engine builder in NZ and has built them for racecars since they were new. His words were 'non-synthetics offer fuck all protection in these engines' and running for a period of decreased load/rpm with the normal oil will break them in just fine. Changed at 850km for fresh stuff and now sitting at about 1500km with another change soon. I maintain that running non synthetic in them from the start is absolutely fine. I would be comfortable changing over if I were you. But ultimately it is your call, and probably best to just follow the advice of whomever built your motor.

Intuitively if there is a interference between parts, e.g. the cylinder walls with a fresh hone and the rings, that will self clearance regardless of what oil is in there. If anything it makes sense that in a engine built to proper spec, with the right hone, torque plated, properly gapped rings etc, it would seem a more protective oil would give those two components a tighter more refined seal. But honestly it's probably all guesswork and superstition as many have said in this thread. Not many people build an engine, run it in, then strip it down rebuild it and run it in using a different run in procedure and then measure the differences. Chances are they all end up at the same conclusion anyway.

[digger]

I ran synthetic 10w60 the entire time. First startup all the way through. As per the recommendation of my engine builder, who is probably the most well regarded BMW engine builder in NZ and has built them for racecars since they were new. His words were 'non-synthetics offer fuck all protection in these engines' and running for a period of decreased load/rpm with the normal oil will break them in just fine. Changed at 850km for fresh stuff and now sitting at about 1500km with another change soon. I maintain that running non synthetic in them from the start is absolutely fine. I would be comfortable changing over if I were you. But ultimately it is your call, and probably best to just follow the advice of whomever built your motor.

Intuitively if there is a interference between parts, e.g. the cylinder walls with a fresh hone and the rings, that will self clearance regardless of what oil is in there. If anything it makes sense that in a engine built to proper spec, with the right hone, torque plated, properly gapped rings etc, it would seem a more protective oil would give those two components a tighter more refined seal. But honestly it's probably all guesswork and superstition as many have said in this thread. Not many people build an engine, run it in, then strip it down rebuild it and run it in using a different run in procedure and then measure the differences. Chances are they all end up at the same conclusion anyway.

The idea is the oil is specified to allow some amount of controlled wear like a final honing process. In an ideal world the parts are prepared exactly as intended and there is no breakin in needed. With modern equipment and measuring/inspection tools many high end places essentially achieve that in that after a pull on the dyno after the engine first gets hot its all sealed up. However the majority wouldn't even know what a profilometer was.

All the aftermarket testing i have seen suggest its safest to use a breakin oil and then after a short period change to the regular oil as it is more forgiving and almost never will it be a problem unless the honing was junk to begin with. Where as not doing that occasionally things do not work as well, this doesn't manifest as a a catastrophe but slightly less ring seal and higher than normal oil consumption the former of which the average punter wouldn't be aware of.

It should be noted that honing equipment, operator skill, ring material and cylinder wall material varies greatly which produces vastly different cylinder wall conditions so its hard to generalise.

BMW may use synthetic but they have qualified their process with the honing methods they have used and done alot of testing to ensure it meets their requirements. They are also mass producing things so cannot afford to be a pedantic as others.

[STAATS]

I ran synthetic 10w60 the entire time. First startup all the way through. As per the recommendation of my engine builder, who is probably the most well regarded BMW engine builder in NZ and has built them for racecars since they were new. His words were 'non-synthetics offer fuck all protection in these engines' and running for a period of decreased load/rpm with the normal oil will break them in just fine. Changed at 850km for fresh stuff and now sitting at about 1500km with another change soon. I maintain that running non synthetic in them from the start is absolutely fine. I would be comfortable changing over if I were you. But ultimately it is your call, and probably best to just follow the advice of whomever built your motor.

Intuitively if there is a interference between parts, e.g. the cylinder walls with a fresh hone and the rings, that will self clearance regardless of what oil is in there. If anything it makes sense that in a engine built to proper spec, with the right hone, torque plated, properly gapped rings etc, it would seem a more protective oil would give those two components a tighter more refined seal. But honestly it's probably all guesswork and superstition as many have said in this thread. Not many people build an engine, run it in, then strip it down rebuild it and run it in using a different run in procedure and then measure the differences. Chances are they all end up at the same conclusion anyway.

I think your engine builder is being a bit OTT and over simplifying with a statement like non-synthetic provides FA protection in these engines. It does definitely provide less and that is part of the point, so the superstition goes... Break-in with synthetic has the potential to not allow the piston-rings to seat but instead to glaze over. as it is too "slippery"... As digger says this doesn't strictly manifest as catastrophic issues but instead would manifest as additional oil consumption and blow-by... so in general, regular punters (like most of us), wouldn't strictly be able to tell the different between a non-synthetic and a synthetic break-in... This is actually 80% of the reason I installed a Radium Automotive Catch Can after rebuilding my engine so that I could monitor the blow-by during break-in to check the piston rings were seating correctly (the other 20% was to keep the oily residue out of my pretty new CF airbox haha)

Digger is pretty on to it with why some places, including many auto manufacturers, are perfectly comfortable with a synthetic oil break-in, because their engine build tolerances have become so good they basically sell it to you ready to go... well this is true to a point... I believe it is Audi... for the R8... or maybe one or all of the RS models? (could be wrong) who actually break-in the engine on the dyno before installing in the car as they do not trust the consumer to do it right and want to give them the keys ready to hit redline day one... This is also something Porsche has supposedly considered doing at some point...

[Thoglan]

STAATS I must admit that I am 100% talking outside of my knowledge and largely appealing to an authority, but all of us on here are. And obviously FA protection is an exaggeration but the fundamental point is that under any significant load or RPM it will not provide the necessary lubrication these need. At what point does 'controlled' wear just become wrecking your fresh hone and putting premature wear on the bearings. Whether or not it was simplified for my sake, probably. But his credentials are unquestionable as he's built BMW engines for 30 years and has a direct line with BMW. He was commissioned by BMW in the early 2000's to develop tooling to service the Getrag 420G and is one of the few in the world who is able to rebuild them. Anyone else who is rebuilding them is likely doing so using his tools.

In addition to knowing him personally, it's hard to to argue. The impression I got when talking to him honestly, was that the process you follow is not that significant to the final outcome but synthetic is the safer bet.

[digger]

STAATS I must admit that I am 100% talking outside of my knowledge and largely appealing to an authority, but all of us on here are. And obviously FA protection is an exaggeration but the fundamental point is that under any significant load or RPM it will not provide the necessary lubrication these need. At what point does 'controlled' wear just become wrecking your fresh hone and putting premature wear on the bearings. Whether or not it was simplified for my sake, probably. But his credentials are unquestionable as he's built BMW engines for 30 years and has a direct line with BMW. He was commissioned by BMW in the early 2000's to develop tooling to service the Getrag 420G and is one of the few in the world who is able to rebuild them. Anyone else who is rebuilding them is likely doing so using his tools.

In addition to knowing him personally, it's hard to to argue. The impression I got when talking to him honestly, was that the process you follow is not that significant to the final outcome but synthetic is the safer bet.

mineral oil is fine for almost all street cars if a sensible oil is chosen and OCI are adjusted , the only time it isn't is in the extremity's of normal operating environment which is not relevant to break-in. I would use a dedicated breakin oil which is typical mineral based rather than random mineral oil from walmart as thats not very smart as you would never know whats in it.

controlled wear stops wrecking your hone when you take it out after monitoring the blowby numbers and crankcase pressure and stability is reached. What this means in practice is following the guidelines of oil change interval from the manufacturer of the oil/system.

read some of the seminars on this from the guys at total seal (Keith Jones and Lake Speed Jr), they know what they are talking about as they have measured all this stuff and are experts in the field of tribology and rings and have data to back their positions and work at highest end of motorsport as well as OE.

Doing something for 30 years does not mean a person knows what they are talking about (this is a general statement about life that people should be able understand and not intended about any individual), it just means they are experienced but could be good bad or otherwise.

Like everything there are lots of ways to effectively skin a cat but some can be shown work better than others.