Is E46/E9X M3 -> 911 GT3 just the natural progression of things?

[Steve]

The 'GT3 or nothing' attitude is a bit flawed. The regular 911 models are still a good step and a half above a M3 as they are a sports car through and through. The GT3s are insane though, no question about it.

[Obioban]

The 'GT3 or nothing' attitude is a bit flawed. The regular 911 models are still a good step and a half above a M3 as they are a sports car through and through. The GT3s are insane though, no question about it.

Eh... much less compelling to make the compromises for the standard car.

Air cooleds make a good street weekend car for sure.

996s have crappy interiors and IMS issues and don't look great.

991s has crappy steering feel and got too big.

992s have crappy steering feel, got too big, and are turbo.

The only non GT3 911s I really find compelling as an e46 M3 alternative is the 997s. Even then, the engine isn't as good and you're giving up a bunch of practicality.

Air cooleds are compelling in their own way, but it's a different thing than the e46 m3. They don't make much sense to track at this point, or daily. As a fair weather weekend driving experience and cars and coffee car they are better than the e46 M3, but... that's a different thing, IMO.

In short, to make the tradeoff worth it, I have trouble caring for anything below the GT3s.

[tnord]

996s have crappy interiors and IMS issues and don't look great.

In short, to make the tradeoff worth it, I have trouble caring for anything below the GT3s.

kind of agree with you, but I still want a 996. they're growing on me style wise and I don't mind the headlights anymore. the 996.2 had alcantara headliners stock, and the full leather dash option takes things upscale. but overall I agree the interior quality of materials is better in the M3. on the other hand i expect the 996 chassis to have a more solid feel overall with fewer squeeks and rattles, which goes to interior quality "feel" also.

no doubt the S54 is a better engine, but the 996 is what, 300lbs less in carrera trim than the M3? the M96 isn't a spectacular engine, but it's still a good engine and doesn't have to work nearly as hard as the S54. a bit more torque, and you don't need as much torque with the better chassis and weight distribution characteristics. the IMS bearing issue is pretty well addressed at this point and not a concern for me anymore.

a 996.1 with full leather, alcantara option or a 996.2 in carrera 4S trim for about $30k is still a lot of car and is a different experience than the e46 M3. I think I want one.

[oceansize]

Somewhere in the future I will get some serious seat time behind one of the new Cayman GTS 4.0 cars since it looks as though my brother is getting one. I've even offered to let him keep it at my house. I'm pretty pumped as I have never driven a Porsche of any note. I'll post my thoughts when it happens.

[sina]

What's crazy is that if you go back and look at reviews from when these cars were new that the E46, at least in CSL form, was being compared and reviewed against the GT3 of the same vintage. I think the CSL even reviewed above the GT3 and below the GT3RS. At least performance wise - I can't speak towards "experience" wise. I don't think anyone would even bother comparing whatever the current top trim M3/4 is with a GT3 these days, and if they do the result is a probably a foregone conclusion. It feels like BMW had a winning formula with the E46/CSL, but then decided to go in a completely different direction for whatever reason.

[Icecream]

What's crazy is that if you go back and look at reviews from when these cars were new that the E46, at least in CSL form, was being compared and reviewed against the GT3 of the same vintage. I think the CSL even reviewed above the GT3 and below the GT3RS. At least performance wise - I can't speak towards "experience" wise. I don't think anyone would even bother comparing whatever the current top trim M3/4 is with a GT3 these days, and if they do the result is a probably a foregone conclusion. It feels like BMW had a winning formula with the E46/CSL, but then decided to go in a completely different direction for whatever reason.

True, too bad the new M4 and GT3 may as well be made on different planets, BMW really strayed away. I think top gear did an M4 GTS and GT3, I think. Nonetheless, the e46 gen M3 in CSL trim and GT3 were much closer in driving philosophy. Nowadays Porsche has no competition to the GT3 except their own cars. Such a shame BMW decided to cater to the LCD instead of keeping the M3 focused. They couldn't produce just ONE CAR that stayed true, BMW, you listening you c***s***ers?

[Steve]

Eh... much less compelling to make the compromises for the standard car.

Air cooleds make a good street weekend car for sure.

996s have crappy interiors and IMS issues and don't look great.

991s has crappy steering feel and got too big.

992s have crappy steering feel, got too big, and are turbo.

The only non GT3 911s I really find compelling as an e46 M3 alternative is the 997s. Even then, the engine isn't as good and you're giving up a bunch of practicality.

Air cooleds are compelling in their own way, but it's a different thing than the e46 m3. They don't make much sense to track at this point, or daily. As a fair weather weekend driving experience and cars and coffee car they are better than the e46 M3, but... that's a different thing, IMO.

In short, to make the tradeoff worth it, I have trouble caring for anything below the GT3s.

Have you driven all of these cars? First I’ve heard of 991s and 992s being “crappy” but to each their own.

[Obioban]

Have you driven all of these cars? First I’ve heard of 991s and 992s being “crappy” but to each their own.

I have not driven a 991 GT3 (and hear it has better steering than the base 911s), but otherwise yes.

I didn’t says the cars were crappy— I said the steering feel is crappy. That is hardly a unique opinion.

[r4dr]

The 'GT3 or nothing' attitude is a bit flawed. The regular 911 models are still a good step and a half above a M3 as they are a sports car through and through. The GT3s are insane though, no question about it.

I've got track experience with a 997.2 C2S and I'd just go to a GT car if you're going to do track work. Plus, as weird as it sounds, if you spend more money upfront for a clean GT car, there's a fair chance you will break even when you sell it or possibly even make a bit of money. This includes doing track work with it. The 996 and 997 GT markets are very stable right now, even moreso with the RS models. I cannot say the same for the 991 GT cars. I don't think they will be held in the same regards as the 996/997 era largely due to the reasons Obioban alluded to.

For the street though... I'm angling towards a G50 Targa. Even the 997.2 C2S is a bit fast for backroads.

[Geoff.T]

kind of agree with you, but I still want a 996. they're growing on me style wise and I don't mind the headlights anymore. the 996.2 had alcantara headliners stock, and the full leather dash option takes things upscale. but overall I agree the interior quality of materials is better in the M3. on the other hand i expect the 996 chassis to have a more solid feel overall with fewer squeeks and rattles, which goes to interior quality "feel" also.

no doubt the S54 is a better engine, but the 996 is what, 300lbs less in carrera trim than the M3? the M96 isn't a spectacular engine, but it's still a good engine and doesn't have to work nearly as hard as the S54. a bit more torque, and you don't need as much torque with the better chassis and weight distribution characteristics. the IMS bearing issue is pretty well addressed at this point and not a concern for me anymore.

a 996.1 with full leather, alcantara option or a 996.2 in carrera 4S trim for about $30k is still a lot of car and is a different experience than the e46 M3. I think I want one.

I have a 996.2 C2 that I drive on the weekends. I'll grab the keys to it before my E46 M3 every time. To me, it's more fun to drive on the street. The power band is so much more usable. I found the interior of the 996 has held up better than my E46 too. They're both 2002 model year. Nothing has come unglued or fallen off in the 996. By 911 standards, the 996 isn't the best version but it's still a damn good street car. The 996 understeers more than my M3 (far from stock, NT01s on all the time) but that can always be addressed with some improvements. Honestly, I wouldn't shed a tear at this point if I sold my E46. I think you should get one.

]

[heinzboehmer]

I have not driven a 991 GT3 (and hear it has better steering than the base 911s), but otherwise yes.

I didn’t says the cars were crappy— I said the steering feel is crappy. That is hardly a unique opinion.

I recently drove a 991.2 4s and a 991.1 GT3 a couple days apart from each other and the steering feel of the GT3 was significantly better (actually everything was, thought it would be a marginal step up but I was very wrong).

But yeah, +1 to the "once I can actually afford one, I'm definitely getting a GT3" mentality. It's the only other car I've driven that offers a sense of occasion like the E46 M3 does. Would really like to drive a 997 GT3 and a manual 991.2 GT3 sometime soon.

[r4dr]

GT cars deserve all the hype they get. Porsche knows what they're doing. There's a reason everyone bitches about the Porsche options nickle and diming but when it's time to pay up, they all do.

[Phoenix///M3]

True, too bad the new M4 and GT3 may as well be made on different planets, BMW really strayed away. I think top gear did an M4 GTS and GT3, I think. Nonetheless, the e46 gen M3 in CSL trim and GT3 were much closer in driving philosophy. Nowadays Porsche has no competition to the GT3 except their own cars. Such a shame BMW decided to cater to the LCD instead of keeping the M3 focused. They couldn't produce just ONE CAR that stayed true, BMW, you listening you c***s***ers?

I don't believe they're listening. Wasn't it their chief engineer who came out not long ago saying people need to get over the E46 M3 and embrace the new M cars.

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[Obioban]

I don't believe they're listening. Wasn't it their chief engineer who came out not long ago saying people need to get over the E46 M3 and embrace the new M cars.

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They new chief engineer, yes.

The previous one left after corporate forced them to use turbos on the F8X.

[Steve]

I've got track experience with a 997.2 C2S and I'd just go to a GT car if you're going to do track work. Plus, as weird as it sounds, if you spend more money upfront for a clean GT car, there's a fair chance you will break even when you sell it or possibly even make a bit of money. This includes doing track work with it. The 996 and 997 GT markets are very stable right now, even moreso with the RS models. I cannot say the same for the 991 GT cars. I don't think they will be held in the same regards as the 996/997 era largely due to the reasons Obioban alluded to.

For the street though... I'm angling towards a G50 Targa. Even the 997.2 C2S is a bit fast for backroads.

Yes, if you don’t mind the price of entry the GT cars are definitely worth it. Are they worth 3x a 997 C2S though? Perhaps if you live on the track, but for the average person the C2S is still a lot of car and loads of fun to drive.

If I had unlimited money, yeah, I’d go with a GT3 most likely, but I don’t so I’m more than happy with my C2S. The point of my post was that the ‘pedestrian models’ are still more capable and more solidly built than the E46 M3. To be fair, they should be as they were $20-30k more when new.