Failed vanos test post Beisan

[sapote]

Have done 4 tests in two separate sessions (i.e. just repeated the test on two occassions)
Intake retard times were 2ms faster, 2ms slower, 2ms faster and 16ms slower
Exhaust retard times were 7ms slower, 29ms slower, 31ms slower and 0ms (ie same)

Mine's an 08/2004 build so I would presume the 115bar pressure should be normal.


Why would flat make it build up too fast? Surely the opposite? It definitely leaks down faster than other videos I've seen. I'm not tracking it.

Something I did notice is the BMW banjo has 4 orifices but the double M10 banjo I used to measure pressure only has 2 per banjo bolt. I ordered the ebay one everyone else has but still hasn't arrived so I went for another solution. I doubt that would make any significant difference would it?

* Did you test the vanos response time with the long 2-hole banjo bolt? Should use the stock 4-hole bolt.
* A flat ACC has less gas volume to compress, therefore the oil pressure should rise up faster than a normal ACC. A flat ACC is like having a large tube filled with oil already and so no filling time needed. Yes, the system pressure drops down faster with flat ACC.

[sapote]

I don't quite follow - you mean the shaft the oil pump disc goes on?

Beisan refers to them as "sprocket sleeve bolts" and "sprocket hub bolt". Those ones.

The shaft you want to check for axial plays is the threaded shaft of the spline shaft -- hold the spline shaft and move the threaded end rapidly back/forth to detect any plays. The plays is caused by the roller bearing inside and the 2 thrust spacers. Rebuilding this thing is tricky: too long a ring spacer leads to too much plays, and a little too short ring spacer leads to destruction of the bearing after torqued down the cover.

[sapote]

I found some old pics when I worked on my original disc with the new smaller holes. I'm surprised that at 72K miles the original holes have very little wear by the tabs, and the disc was quite clean that it shows no "cleaned circle" by the center shaft oil jet. My friend chamfered the new holes a little too much.



And here is my special bridge tool for timing the cams: Carpenter square, drill bit and caliper

[Shonky]

* Did you test the vanos response time with the long 2-hole banjo bolt? Should use the stock 4-hole bolt.

Both.
First two tests with all factory fittings (and no pressure guage)
Test 1
Advance time inlet: 216ms
Retardation time inlet 214ms
Advance time exhaust 201ms
Retardation time exhaust 208ms

Test 2 (2 minutes after test 1)
Advance time inlet: 212ms
Retardation time inlet 214ms
Advance time exhaust 190ms
Retardation time exhaust 219ms

Tests with double banjo (not the ebay one most here are using as mine still hadn't arrived) and pressure guage fitted about two weeks later. Outlet closest the thread for the factory fitting, gauge on the top banjo outlet.
Test 3
Advance time inlet: 211ms
Retardation time inlet 209ms
Advance time exhaust 190ms
Retardation time exhaust 221ms

Test 4 (11 minutes after test 3)
Advance time inlet: 207ms
Retardation time inlet 223ms
Advance time exhaust 205ms
Retardation time exhaust 205ms



Based on those numbers, the 2 hole/4 hole banjo does not appear to have a noticeable effect on VANOS test times at all.

[Cubieman]

Jumping the gun with photos already, taking vanos off currently and for whats its worth the beisan disc was fully touching the hub I was able to press it back with a finger to produce the gap shown in the second image.

[maupineda]

^^^ the first photo is what I had been trying to explain all along, you do not want the disc to ever protrude past the shaft. That is why you are not building enough pressure. The hub becomes the physical stop for the disc to move axially. The disc should be as in your second photo ALL the time and the hub is what limits it. I am not 100% sure why in our case the hub is so car rearward, but is not correct.

[sapote]

Jumping the gun with photos already, taking vanos off currently and for whats its worth the beisan disc was fully touching the hub I was able to press it back with a finger to produce the gap shown in the second image.

Yes, that I would expect: touched the hub tabs and easily pushed forward.

Sounds like the Scientist ready to fly to the moon here.

[Shonky]

^^^ the first photo is what I had been trying to explain, you do not want the disc to ever protrude past the shaft. That is why you are not building enough pressure. The hub becomes the physical stop for the disc to move axially.

Ok, but doesn't that imply the shaft is not close enough to the hub - doesn't really matter about the pump disc thickness at that point. Basically the base of the tabs should be pretty much level with the top of the shaft.

[sapote]

you do not want the disc to ever protrude past the shaft. That is why you are not building enough pressure. .

Without knowing the center shaft oil grooves position relative to the shaft end, and the disc 4 oil holes to its rear end, you cannot say the best position is to have the disc flush to the shaft end. Why not measure the dimensions I mentioned?

[maupineda]

Without knowing the center shaft oil grooves position relative to the shaft end, and the disc 4 oil holes to its rear end, you cannot say the best position is to have the disc flush to the shaft end. Why not measure the dimensions I mentioned?

Did you actually read my posts. By design, all holes line up pretty much at install position. The shaft is 20.5mm height. And the holes are “close” the middle of it.

The OE disc is 20.15. With the holes at 10.15mm. By design there seems to be a small offset but not more than 0.2mm. This is ok as the springs cups orifice become the limiting aperture for the piston to suck and pump oil, but look at the photo, that is at least 1mm of axial displacement which would misaligned the holes of the piston and the shaft causing the low pump pressure

so I don’t think the issue is the disc, but assembly.

[Cubieman]

[sapote]

Did you actually read my posts. By design, all holes line up pretty much at install position. The shaft is 20.5mm height. And the holes are “close” the middle of it.

The OE disc is 20.15. With the holes at 10.15mm. By design there seems to be a small offset but not more than 0.2mm. This is ok as the springs cups orifice become the limiting aperture for the piston to suck and pump oil
so I don’t think the issue is the disc, but assembly.

I read read your previous posted data, but there was no data about the center shaft oil holes relative to shaft end Here is the previous data below.

Anyway, we know that during operation the disc is offset further rearward and touches the tabs. This is why the disc center hole with the "cleaned circle" offset from the disc 4-hole and in some cases, I see the "cleaned circle" also off the holes.
The offset is not due to assembly as you think, but due to the hub tabs contact length. There is nothing one can assemble the hub/sprocket to the ring on the cam. There is no shim or anything to adjust. The torque spec on the 6 hub bolts cannot change the tabs to disc contact dimension. The only way to optimize the shaft/disc oil holes alignment is to add 2 shims between tabs and disc as I posted before.






"OE Disc height is 20.15mm from the center to the machined groove, and 20.00mm there after
OE Disc piston holes are 9.03mm
OE Pistons are 9.00mm
OE Disc ID is 26.09
Pump Shaft OD is 26.07
Pump Shaft height is 20.50mm

Below are some facts we need to keep in mind

Pump disc as installed is bottomed out to the VANOS unit aluminum casting
The pump disc pistons outer race does not bottom out, nor contact the washer retained by the large c-clip, it just "floats" and spins on the roller bearing
There are ~3mm of clearance between the outer race and the washer
The pump piston side holes are centered on the disc relative the the 20.00mm height, not the 20.15mm "

[Cubieman]

I was unable to get an accurate measurement of the inner disc hole size as I have a cheap pair of digital calipers that were all over the place so I considered the results not worth reporting.

I did however measure disc thickness with a quality micrometer:
OE disc thickness: 19.987
Beisan disc thickness: 19.930

I tried rocking each disc installed on shaft different amounts and neither disc seems to have any amount of play.

Both discs seem to have good fitment with pistons in that when I cover the inner holes and press the pistons in they want to pop back out. I could not notice a difference (by feel) between beisan/OE on how much "compression" the pistons have. I also could not feel a difference in how easy/hard lining up and sliding pistons into side holes was.

Off hand the only difference I can FEEL is when installing the Beisan disc on shaft it definitely seems to drop on and into postion with more ease than the OE disc. Also the beisan disc feels easier to spin on shaft when compared to OE disc.
Both discs were cleaned and oiled with a dab of engine oil so they have equal lubrication during the "feel" test.

If you look at my photos above you will see the "cleaned oil jet line" is off center off the inner holes and also there seems to be two distinct lines which is interesting to me.

The OE disc I was sent has a line but it is very difficult to see, the line I do see is in line with the inner holes.

Also for what's it worth the disc sent is marked "B" (I can just barely see the top of the "B" above re-drilled hole), my original disc was marked "A". I know there has been some talk if "A" vs. "B" has any differences, I posed that question to Raj and he said there is no difference and it may simply be to identify different assembly lines or something of the like.

I am now more confused than ever and agree the disc may have nothing to do with the issues I am having, but the fact that the OE disc feels tighter on the shaft is something that may have an effect.

Photo of the "oil jet line" on OE disc:

[sapote]

"If you look at my photos above you will see the "cleaned oil jet line" is off center off the inner holes and also there seems to be two distinct lines which is interesting to me."

Your new BS disc is too new to see the "cleaned" oil jet line. The other lines seems to be during the manufacturing process.

[sapote]

It had been cleaned good so I cannot see the old "cleaned jet line". This OE disc seems to have less wear in the holes and the tabs rubbing marks so hopefully it's inside diameter is tight as you compared with the new disc.