Failed vanos test post Beisan

[sapote]

You should be able to measure the shaft grooved lines relative to the shaft end, and the disc inner holes to its outer face. This is important to know how much offset when disc contacts the tabs.

[Cubieman]

You should be able to measure the shaft grooved lines relative to the shaft end, and the disc inner holes to its outer face. This is important to know how much offset when disc contacts the tabs.

Will do, I will list those measurements tomorrow night. Also after fully retarding exhaust cam it is out of time or so it would seem in that it's advanced enough the pin will not even go into the hole. I sure hope that means the cam simply isn't fully retarded. I know simply removing vanos will not effect timing, I really hope I don't have to deal with timing again.
One thing at a time...

[maupineda]

Will do, I will list those measurements tomorrow night. Also after fully retarding exhaust cam it is out of time or so it would seem in that it's advanced enough the pin will not even go into the hole. I sure hope that means the cam simply isn't fully retarded. I know simply removing vanos will not effect timing, I really hope I don't have to deal with timing again.
One thing at a time...

A few things...

does the Beisan disc have two thickness as the OE? This is important as it would affect the offset of the piston holes to the shaft ones

Don’t attempt to check timing with the VANOS off!!!! DO NOT move anything. Wait for the VANOS to be back on and tighten to check. Don't be surprised if it moved a bit and don’t loose sleep on it. The car can adjust for it. If your adaptations are green and in the 0-3 degrees is fine.

go by your test results to confirm your engine is in check for peace of mind. However, unless you are 100 on your torque of the hubs bolts, I would do it again

contrary to what sapote says, if those bolts are torqued higher than 14NM, the hub distance to the disc will increase slightly (more compression on the spring pack). This can be proved by the fact that as you tighten those, the cams lock as the spring cups are clutching the cams with the sprockets. So yes, there is a too tight or too loose situation here. Remember how as you tighten your bolts the others around separate from the hub ?? The cup spring assembly is thicker than the space on the back of the hub, that is why they can compress as the bolts are tightened and the system is “locked”, obviously there is slippage possible as that is how the cams can advance and retard by slipping on those cup springs. too much preload, and the harder it will be to slip and adjust.

i hope this all makes sense.

your two sources for low pressure in my mind are

- thickness of the beisan disc if it does not have the two thickness’
- preload on the hub (i would not think 14N would fully compress the spring cup packs, otherwise you could just bolt down by feel until they bottom out and stop)

but I am happy to be proven wrong on the above with data so everyone can benefit.

If it was me at this point, I would buy S54 spring cups and use the OE disc, redo torqueing on the hubs, unless you know your extension is good for that (test on any other bolt around).

The S62 cup springs are thicker, I did measure them but cannot remember how much, so they will have more preload.

---

Edit: I proved my own self wrong already, found a photo that shows the the hubs bottom out to the chain sprockets. So the preload increase would only come from using the S62 items.

[Cubieman]

A few things...

does the Beisan disc have two thickness as the OE? This is important as it would affect the offset of the piston holes to the shaft ones

Don’t attempt to check timing with the VANOS off!!!! DO NOT move anything. Wait for the VANOS to be back on and tighten to check. Don't be surprised if it moved a bit and don’t loose sleep on it. The car can adjust for it. If your adaptations are green and in the 0-3 degrees is fine.

go by your test results to confirm your engine is in check for peace of mind. However, unless you are 100 on your torque of the hubs bolts, I would do it again

contrary to what sapote says, if those bolts are torqued higher than 14NM, the hub distance to the disc will increase slightly (more compression on the spring pack). This can be proved by the fact that as you tighten those, the cams lock as the spring cups are clutching the cams with the sprockets. So yes, there is a too tight or too loose situation here. Remember how as you tighten your bolts the others around separate from the hub ?? The cup spring assembly is thicker than the space on the back of the hub, that is why they can compress as the bolts are tightened and the system is “locked”, obviously there is slippage possible as that is how the cams can advance and retard by slipping on those cup springs. too much preload, and the harder it will be to slip and adjust.

i hope this all makes sense.

your two sources for low pressure in my mind are

- thickness of the beisan disc if it does not have the two thickness’
- preload on the hub (i would not think 14N would fully compress the spring cup packs, otherwise you could just bolt down by feel until they bottom out and stop)

but I am happy to be proven wrong on the above with data so everyone can benefit.

If it was me at this point, I would buy S54 spring cups and use the OE disc, redo torqueing on the hubs, unless you know your extension is good for that (test on any other bolt around).

The S62 cup springs are thicker, I did measure them but cannot remember how much, so they will have more preload.

---

Edit: I proved my own self wrong already, found a photo that shows the the hubs bottom out to the chain sprockets. So the preload increase would only come from using the S62 items.

Ok, so we think that even with S62 springs the hub will indeed bottom out just the same only difference is increase in pre-load (and maybe longer response times)?

I won't touch the timing until vanos is on but the exhaust cam seemed to have moved unless I don't have it fully retarded, I should have read adaptations before disassembly, but I checked them out 2 times since I did the vanos job and exhaust was 2.8 and intake -1.6 so there is room for improvement.

I need to decide whether or not to install my original S54 springs.

Edit: You mention being in the green is 0-3 and my exhaust is 2.8, so on the high side, this I interesting as when setting timing exhaust cam always ended up just a bit retarded , i.e bridge would lift up on intake side.
My final timing ended up with bridge dead nuts flush and pin smoothly dropping into place with zero effort on intake cam. The exhaust cam after many different tries eneded up with about .2-.3mm lift on intake side of enigne.
So how its 2.8° advanced is beyond me.

I am sorry to talk timing as this is not the reason for this thread but once I can either leave my current timing alone or reset then I can get on with what we all want to know, pressure/response test.

I may take the exhaust splined shaft out and re-do the anti-rattle procedure, it feels a but gritty IF I grab the threaded portion and turn it off center.
I distinctly remember when I did anti-rattle the intake splined shaft felt a bit tighter (more pre-load) than exhaust, but exhaust spun smoothly in hand.

So obviously if I take the splined shafts out or decide S54 springs are a good idea timing will get to be done once again. I just won't be so worried, last time I did timing as you know I was quite nervous and I was shaking nervous as I started the car. At least most of the fear factor is gone.

[maupineda]

Ok, so we think that even with S62 springs the hub will indeed bottom out just the same only difference is increase in pre-load (and maybe longer response times)?

I won't touch the timing until vanos is on but the exhaust cam seemed to have moved unless I don't have it fully retarded, I should have read adaptations before disassembly, but I checked them out 2 times since I did the vanos job and exhaust was 2.8 and intake -1.6 so there is room for improvement.

I need to decide whether or not to install my original S54 springs.

Edit: You mention being in the green is 0-3 and my exhaust is 2.8, so on the high side, this I interesting as when setting timing exhaust cam always ended up just a bit retarded , i.e bridge would lift up on intake side.
My final timing ended up with bridge dead nuts flush and pin smoothly dropping into place with zero effort on intake cam. The exhaust cam after many different tries eneded up with about .2-.3 lift on intake side of enigne.
So how its 2.8° advanced is beyond me.

I am sorry to talk timing as this is not the reason for this thread but once I can either leave my current timing one or reset then I can get on with what we all want to know, pressure/response test.

I may take the exhaust splined shaft out and re-do the anti-rattle procedure, it feels a but gritty IF I grab the threaded portion and turn it off center.
I distinctly remember when I did anti-rattle the intake splined shaft felt a bit tighter (more pre-load) than exhaust, but exhaust spun smoothly in hand.

So obviously if I take the splined shafts out or decide S54 springs are a good idea timing will get to be done once again. I just won't be so worried, last time I did timing as you know I was quite nervous and I was shaking nervous as I started the car. At the most of the fear factor is gone.

Seems you have the originals, can you measure them? you will find the S62 are beefier. Yes, if they are thicker, you will have more preload, slowing the system a bit, and with your lower pressure issue at 1500, no surprise the time was bad. I think is your call if you want to leave it to the disc only.

[sapote]

Edit: I proved my own self wrong already, found a photo that shows the the hubs bottom out to the chain sprockets. So the preload increase would only come from using the S62 items.

I’m glad you agreed that the hub bottomed out on the sprocket. I don’t know how can you tell they are bottomed on each other or a tiny gap by looking at a pic.

The hub, sprocket and the threaded 6-hole ring on the cam have to be clamped altogether by the 6 hub bolts at 14Nm. If they are not bottomed on each other, the timing that one painstakingly set will be changed as the hub slides against the sprocket in operation.
Re to the spring cup, it only contacts the hub by a thin circular line and so there is very little contact surface area to worry about increase friction and slow down the vanos response, even for the S62 cup. Without the cup to preload, there is a tiny gap between the sprocket to the cam and the push/pull action of the vanos piston will cause rattling by this tiny axial plays.

I hope we all agreed that bolting down the hub bolts to 14Nm, or even higher, will not change the distance from the hub tabs to the disc.

[sapote]

I won't touch the timing until vanos is on but the exhaust cam seemed to have moved unless I don't have it fully retarded.

If you are happy with the timing set last time, you don’t need to touch the hubs bolts at all during swapping out the disc. Leave the spline shafts in the hubs. The system timing will stay exactly as you set last time regardless where the cams are at the moment.

[Cubieman]

If you are happy with the timing set last time, you don’t need to touch the hubs bolts at all during swapping out the disc. Leave the spline shafts in the hubs. The system timing will stay exactly as you set last time regardless where the cams are at the moment.

Out of curiosity why would the exhaust cam be visibly "off" from where I had it set last time?
I understand the vehicle advances the EX cam for some reason, but I took a wrench to the EX cam and it didn't feel like I wanted to pull any harder on it (after rocking back/forth), so I assume it's fully retarded.
If EX cam is indeed fully retarded it would appear that it drifted (advanced) quite bit from where I left it.

I am happy with my timing, it could be better, but not to the point I want to mess with it again, it looks like EX cam drifted but I could be 100% wrong.

[sapote]

Out of curiosity why would the exhaust cam be visibly "off" from where I had it set last time?.

Compared to what? Do you have the crank at TDC? If it is then both cams should aligned with the bridge pin unless the chain is slack on the pulling side. If the hub bolts are not loosen then the timing stays as before.

[eacmen]

Out of curiosity why would the exhaust cam be visibly "off" from where I had it set last time?
I understand the vehicle advances the EX cam for some reason, but I took a wrench to the EX cam and it didn't feel like I wanted to pull any harder on it (after rocking back/forth), so I assume it's fully retarded.
If EX cam is indeed fully retarded it would appear that it drifted (advanced) quite bit from where I left it.

I am happy with my timing, it could be better, but not to the point I want to mess with it again, it looks like EX cam drifted but I could be 100% wrong.

Both times i’ve done this the exhaust side was always *slightly* advanced after rotating the engine a few times. Both times vanos test was perfect and have had no issues.

The tolerance of the crank TDC pin into the balancer is not *that* exact. The VANOS easily can adapt to mechanical timing being slightly off.

[Cubieman]

Compared to what? Do you have the crank at TDC? If it is then both cams should aligned with the bridge pin unless the chain is slack on the pulling side. If the hub bolts are not loosen then the timing stays as before.

Yes, engine is TDC 1, lock pin is not inserted as I wasn't concerned about that when simply removing VANOS, crank is just a hair (~1-2mm) CCW of TDC so crank pin cannot be inserted.
But the EX cam is quite far off (adv.) from bridge pin being able to be inserted while IN cam bridge/pin sits flat on head.

I must just not have EX cam fully retarded OR timing drifted somehow. I wouldn't have brought it up because I want to keep thread on topic but it just caught my attention how far off EX cam is.

Once vanos is installed I will turn it over a few times and see if that changes anything.

[sapote]

But the EX cam is quite far off (adv.) from bridge pin being able to be inserted while IN cam bridge/pin sits flat on head.

Once vanos is installed I will turn it over a few times and see if that changes anything.

I understand now. When engine shut off the DME might have moved the EX to an advanced position and so don't expect the cam fits the pin. But nothing has chanced since you last set the timing.

Once the vanos is remove (solenoid plate removed) the EX cam can be set to the pin as you like.

Once the vanos is installed, without the solenoid plate bolted in (no compressed oil or gas for pistons to move freely) turn the crank a few turns and double check the crank, cams timing. I expect nothing have changed.

[Cubieman]

Is it acceptable/safe to read vanos adaptations while vanos is removed? I assume this is stored data and nothing is read "real time".

[heinzboehmer]

Is it acceptable/safe to read vanos adaptations while vanos is removed? I assume this is stored data and nothing is read "real time".

Yeah it's fine, you're just reading a value out from the DME.

[sapote]

Is it acceptable/safe to read vanos adaptations while vanos is removed? I assume this is stored data and nothing is read "real time".

I would be nervous turning the key in there, what if somehow the starter cranks and ended up with bent valves?
You could remove the EWS connector to disable the starter, or just remove the battery and jump the car with a 10A supply or charger.