Failed vanos test post Beisan

[oceansize]

Gents,


I adore all of of the comments, but wrong concept.

Cubieman, you are doing the cam timing very very wrong and so toons of people I see. Its
a major mistake people repeat over and over again. I understand the TiS precedence but..

Design must be understood, first.

When I do the timing on S54, I can rotate the engine until the lobes of the camshaft and rocker arms do
get ware out....and the Timing bridge will land flush on the cylinder head A and E. Also the pins do drop on
its own weight. I use 2 pins not single which makes things terribly difficult...


I am thinking to make a video with my PayPal account to help people..

Regards,
Anri.

Well thanks for popping in andddddddddddddddddddddd providing zero information.

Regards,
NAM3FORUM

[sapote]

Gents,


I adore all of of the comments, but wrong concept.

Cubieman, you are doing the cam timing very very wrong and so toons of people I see. Its
a major mistake people repeat over and over again. I understand the TiS precedence but..

Design must be understood, first.

When I do the timing on S54, I can rotate the engine until the lobes of the camshaft and rocker arms do
get ware out....and the Timing bridge will land flush on the cylinder head A and E. Also the pins do drop on
its own weight. I use 2 pins not single which makes things terribly difficult...


I am thinking to make a video with my PayPal account to help people..

Regards,
Anri.

This is not helpful at all.

[JeremyJames]

Cubieman for the sake of your sanity, I also could not budge my EX cam. I ground down massive wrenches that were longer for more torque to no avail. After tapping out, I called my neighbor over who is a master mechanic and also a big boned dude, nor could he budge the EX cam in anyway shape or form.

[Cubieman]

Cubieman for the sake of your sanity, I also could not budge my EX cam. I ground down massive wrenches that were longer for more torque to no avail. After tapping out, I called my neighbor over who is a master mechanic and also a big boned dude, nor could he budge the EX cam in anyway shape or form.

Sounds like I should have left it alone now I get to do timing again, oh boy! S54 hub plates and Springs installed, so to be clear response times may be affected by the different springs and/or torque of hub bolts.
Pressure test will be the most important thing when its all done.

Just to be clear I understand that I could have left timing alone as I know timing did not drift. I wanted to see if the hubs/plates showed signs of binding plus maybe get timing down a bit better.

I thought maybe timing had indeed drifted until I saw the exhaust side piston was not fully extended in vanos.

I hope timing goes well so I don't have to drag you guys through another hellish timing experience like my previous job. Hope to get it all together tonight and test Thursday/Friday.

[JeremyJames]

Cubieman may the M gods be with you, my brother.

Good luck!

[maupineda]

You are doing the right thing. Pistons must be out or their position will be off during operation. It sounds you ran out of rotation travel on the sprocket side. That is why you could not retard it any further

this very same happened to us on the intake when timing it and not following the procedure. Follow it to the T and use the steps I added on your timing post.

we had the same issue timing the car until we did that and it was fine.

[Cubieman]

You are doing the right thing. Pistons must be out or their position will be off during operation. It sounds you ran out of rotation travel on the sprocket side. That is why you could not retard it any further

this very same happened to us on the intake when timing it and not following the procedure. Follow it to the T and use the steps I added on your timing post.

we had the same issue timing the car until we did that and it was fine.

I'm sorry but do you happen to know which thread it was as I made I think 4 in regards to more or less the same topic. I looked at them and did not see your steps. I think may try the witness marks on hub bolts.

Edit: think I found your info on another person's thread.

https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/main-forum/e46-2001-2006/89642-s54-vanos-post-beisan-dv-rebuild-timing-issue

[sapote]

. It sounds you ran out of rotation travel on the sprocket side. That is why you could not retard it any further.

I think you misunderstood. OP was trying to retard the EX cam with the hub bolted to sprocket untouched as last set month ago. The spline shaft in the hub should have the traveling range to meet the engine operating requirement. He couldn't turn the cam because the spline was not designed to convert rotational motion to linear motion -- it's the other way around with the force of the 115bar oil.

[eacmen]

I think you misunderstood. OP was trying to retard the EX cam with the hub bolted to sprocket untouched as last set month ago. The spline shaft in the hub should have the traveling range to meet the engine operating requirement. He couldn't turn the cam because the spline was not designed to convert rotational motion to linear motion -- it's the other way around with the force of the 115bar oil.

This.

This is this reason i always use some engine oil on the splines while installing.

[sapote]

OP, before close up the VC, make sure to measure the gap between the disc face and the tabs (using a compass pointed legs then transfer by the caliper). This tells us how much the disc oil holes offset. If this gap is close to 3mm then the oil holes could be blocked badly.
I know it's not easy, but with the caliper shaft inside the disc center hole, you should be able to get good measure from disc face to hole center; The same for measure the center shaft oil grooves.

[maupineda]

I'm sorry but do you happen to know which thread it was as I made I think 4 in regards to more or less the same topic. I looked at them and did not see your steps. I think may try the witness marks on hub bolts.

Edit: think I found your info on another person's thread.
https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...d-timing-issue

Cubie, a few things I wanted to ask

• Did you confirm the Beisan disc has two heights as the OE?
• In your photos, the Beisan disc seems to be scored, or is it just reflection?
• are you sure on the cup springs measurements, it is known that the S62 are slightly thicker, hence why they are used to reduce chances of chatter or rattle. this is even called out on the Beisan procedure

[Cubieman]

Cubie, a few things I wanted to ask

• Did you confirm the Beisan disc has two heights as the OE?
  I did not ask Raj if Beisan disc has two heights, Raj did tell me the "A" and "B" on on OE discs had nothing to do with dimensions but maybe with different production runs/lines.
• In your photos, the Beisan disc seems to be scored, or is it just reflection?
  The inner portion had two distinct lines,likely from the oil jet, why there was two distinct lines I am unsure of. However it would appear they correspond to two holes on the shaft, not the main holes in line with the "oil groove" but the two smaller holes present on the shaft.
  Are the lines on the inner portion what you are referring to? Those lines can be felt when a pick is dragged over them.
• are you sure on the cup springs measurements, it is known that the S62 are slightly thicker, hence why they are used to reduce chances of chatter or rattle.
  this is even called out on the Beisan procedure
  The S62 plate is indeed thinner than S54, that confused me until I saw that the S62 cup springs look over twice the thickness of S54 cup springs. I wonder if the thicker spring reduces chances of rattle due to harmonics? I re-installed my S54 springs for better or worse.

Also, timing is finished and I *think* I may have done better than last the previous installation. At TDC 1 both pins slide in smooth/bridge flat. Before IN cam pin went in hard and EX cam Bridge lifted ~.2-.3mm intake side.

I timed three times, vanos off each time, the use of "torque marks" was of great benefit to me. It not only allowed me to be more confident in the use of an open end wrench to torque but it confirmed that the extension I use (at 90°) is indeed accurate with is great as this extension makes it easy.

- 1st attempt TDC with crank lock in: both cam eneded up slightly retarded.
- 2nd attempt TDC just barely CCW of being able to insert crank lock pin:both cams still retarded, just not quite as much
3rd attempt: TDC but CCW a but more, the hole for crank lock pin was fully visible but completely biased to the left (CCW) side of the crank locking hole.

The 3rd attempt had me unlocking (breaking hubs bolts loose) the hubs at a different spot so I actually had to rotate the splined shafts CCW 1 tooth (as compared to crank at TDC w/ lock pin installed) to find the "sweet spot". I had the "sweet spots" marked previously and this is why I could see that was the case. That might be hard to follow.

[maupineda]

The two heights is nothing you need to ask anyone, just have a look at the disk, on the back side you will see a slight step, this step is about 0.15mm. see below.

Towards the center, the OE disk gets thicker / taller, I measure 20.15 there, whereas after that step is 20.00 (using a digital caliper, does the Beisan disc have this "feature"?



By the look of your photos, the Beisan disc seems to have some scoring on the inner surface of the bushing, the OE is silky smooth by the looks of it. did you inspect your shaft to ensure it was perfectly smooth without scoring?

[maupineda]

Also, timing is finished and I *think* I may have done better than last the previous installation. At TDC 1 both pins slide in smooth/bridge flat. Before IN cam pin went in hard and EX cam Bridge lifted ~.2-.3mm intake side.

I timed three times, vanos off each time, the use of "torque marks" was of great benefit to me. It not only allowed me to be more confident in the use of an open end wrench to torque but it confirmed that the extension I use (at 90°) is indeed accurate with is great as this extension makes it easy.

- 1st attempt TDC with crank lock in: both cam eneded up slightly retarded.
- 2nd attempt TDC just barely CCW of being able to insert crank lock pin:both cams still retarded, just not quite as much
3rd attempt: TDC but CCW a but more, the hole for crank lock pin was fully visible but completely biased to the left (CCW) side of the crank locking hole.

The 3rd attempt had me unlocking (breaking hubs bolts loose) the hubs at a different spot so I actually had to rotate the splined shafts CCW 1 tooth (as compared to crank at TDC w/ lock pin installed) to find the "sweet spot". I had the "sweet spots" marked previously and this is why I could see that was the case. That might be hard to follow.

Well now remove the caps and make sure pistons and fully retracted, you are doing it wrong, the moment you loosen the hubs, you need to pull the VANOS back and insert it again to ensure pistons remain bottomed out. i hope it worked for you, but check piston position to be sure. but cheating is absolutely not necessary. if the pistons are not bottomed out time will slip, no wonder why you had higher adaptations. I have zero in one cam, and just 1.2 in another,

[Cubieman]

Well now remove the caps and make sure pistons and fully retracted, you are doing it wrong, the moment you loosen the hubs, you need to pull the VANOS back and insert it again to ensure pistons remain bottomed out. i hope it worked for you, but check piston position to be sure. but cheating is absolutely not necessary. if the pistons are not bottomed out time will slip, no wonder why you had higher adaptations. I have zero in one cam, and just 1.2 in another,

I did absolutely remove the vanos between each attempt, also when I was finished both caps were removed and pistons appeared bottomed out.
The last time I timed the engine I got so sick of removing vanos that I did indeed leave it installed and re-time on final attempt.

I don't like the fact I biased the crank to achieve correct timing. In fact I followed your instructions the first go around and unfortunately it was the same result as last time except both cams were retarded instead of only EX cam.

I will check the beisan disc for this feature and take a few photos and a measurement. I didn't follow originally and thought you meant to ask me if the beisan disc had two different thicknesses overall like some have eluded to with OE "A" vs "B" disc, I see what you mean about this "stepped" area on back side of disc an will check that later today.

The shaft was very clean and did not appear to have any kind of scoring etc.

The one thing that stands out to me throughout the install is the beisan disc will drop straight down the shaft and "clink" when it bottoms out. The OE disc I was sent when aligned with shaft very slowly falls down the shaft with gravity and no "clink".
I can feel more resistance when turning the OE disc on shaft as compared to Besian, also when OE disc is turned on shaft it produces a notably louder "sucking/pumping" noise than the Besian disc.
Neither disc rocks when installed on shaft, I attempted to rock each disc anywhere from 25%-100% installed on shaft and neither did.