S54 Vanos post Beisan/DV Rebuild Timing Issue

[Slideways]

1. sapote thanks for the correction - I changed the sprocket sleeve bolts (the torx ones that need loctite)

2. In retrospect, turning the crank slowly is one of things I could have done better, and I was a bit careless the first few times I checked timing. While the Beisan instructions imply this, it didn’t sink in for me that the precision of your timing check can be affected.

In the instructions from Beisan website that precede the hub bolt tightening sequence - this statement is included: “Turning crankshaft counter clockwise is acceptable.“

I disagree with that after watching how it affected the relative position of the TDC mark in comparison to the cams.

More retrospective:
1) follow only one set of instructions - The Beisan ones are good, but mind numbing (likely a reflection of TIS)
2) be very disciplined with the hub bolt tightening sequence, and understand this accomplishes more than simple alignment of the bolts - it is properly compressing the diaphragm spring as well.

Its not so much an obsessive concern about timing…but I will remove and reinstall my VANOS today to rework the hub tightening process and get that right.

Why are you removing the VANOS again? It sounds like you did it correctly in your previous post. It is most likely slack in the chain causing the timing to go out a hair after turning the crank back to TDC. To satisfy the OCD, all it takes is nudging the cam with the 24mm wrench to get the pins to slide through perfectly as they did with the VANOS off. We are probably talking about less than a degree as that BMW timing tool is very precise. Even if you turn the engine over again to TDC a third time, the cam pins still might not slide in perfectly smooth. The timing should be fine as long as the VANOS splined gears were fully pushed into the VANOS unit before install.

Two things that should be revised in the Beisan DIY are the counterclockwise thing and the TIS (and Torque PDF) has the torque setting for the chain guide bolt at 13Nm (Beisan has it at 24Nm!). Beisan also has the strut brace nuts torqued to 40Nm when it should be 24Nm according to the Torque PDF.

[OldRanger]

Linking related topics as there are numerous to review. Sometimes the internal search feature doesn't produce results as well as Google. I think this is a reasonable repository of VANOS threads/topics. I'm trying to think of a way to simplify organizing all of this, but this is the best I can do at this point. Maybe a moderator can assist? sapote

1: Having trouble timing after VANOS work? Wondering why your timing is good one rotation and not the next? Wondering if it's really OK to turn the crank CCW? You are not alone, and the posts on this board are extensive. There is a lot to consider, but I'll add: remember some of these engines are high mileage and wear on these timing chain components is inevitable and relevant.

8/16/20, OP is avusblue Timing s54 after vanos rebuild installation, 4 pages https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...d-installation
3/7/21, OP is Joshb556 S54 Vanos post Beisan/DV Rebuild Timing Issue, 6 pages https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...d-timing-issue
1/27/23, OP is nextelbuddy Vanos Timing Question, 2 pages https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...iming-question
1/17/21, OP is Cubieman Engine Wont Time Post VANOS Install, 4 pages https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...-vanos-install

2: Want an alternative method to torque the VANOS Hub Bolts to Spec? It is a generally accepted fact that improperly torqueing the hub bolts could throw off timing.
1/11/21 OP is sapote Why use a method that you can't torque the VANOS hub bolts to spec?, 2 pages https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...-bolts-to-spec

3. Need advice for VANOS testing and/or adaptations:

6/13/20, OP is boadly Need help doing vanos test with INPA, 6 pages https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/s...test-with-inpa
1/28/22, OP is Arinb12 What are vanos adaptations?,1 page, https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...os-adaptations

4: Difficulty starting after VANOS work - this thread is lengthy and delves into root cause analysis

2/25/23 OP is jamesfoley Vanos Rebuild Start Hesitation, 12 pageshttps://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/main-forum/e46-2001-2006/207251-vanos-rebuild-start-hesitation

[OldRanger]

Why the hub bolts need to be replaced? Or do you mean the cam sleeves bolts which should be Loctite.

1. sapote thanks for the correction - I changed the sprocket sleeve bolts (the torx ones that need loctite)

2. In retrospect, turning the crank slowly is one of things I could have done better, and I was a bit careless the first few times I checked timing. While the Beisan instructions imply this, it didn’t sink in for me that the precision of your timing check can be affected.

In the instructions from Beisan website that precede the hub bolt tightening sequence - this statement is included: “Turning crankshaft counter clockwise is acceptable.“

I disagree with that after watching how it affected the relative position of the TDC mark in comparison to the cams.

More retrospective:
1) follow only one set of instructions - The Beisan ones are good, but mind numbing (likely a reflection of TIS)
2) be very disciplined with the hub bolt tightening sequence, and understand this accomplishes more than simple alignment of the bolts - it is properly compressing the diaphragm spring as well.

Its not so much an obsessive concern about timing…but I will remove and reinstall my VANOS today to rework the hub tightening process and get that right.

[sapote]

1. replaced the VANOS hub bolts.

2. Some of this minor variance must be due to slack in the chain without oil pressure on the tensioner. Some of this could also be attributable to the fact there is no oil pressure in the VANOS cylinders.

Why the hub bolts need to be replaced? Or do you mean the cam sleeves bolts which should be Loctite.

2. If the crank is turned slowly CW then the timing doesn't depend on the tensioner or slack in the chain, nor the oil pressure in the vanos because the vanos pistons are touching the vanos caps at their max forward position.

[OldRanger]

I've just performed the Beisan VANOS procedures except for anti-rattle. I did the following: 1) replaced the oil pump disk 2) replaced the upper chain guide with OEM 3) replaced the internal vanos seals and 4) replaced the VANOS hub bolts. I had already completed the solenoid replacement to address a code last year. My engine has almost 167K miles. During the disassembly process I found that the pump disk was original and significantly battered, the OE exhaust tabs were still intact, the OE upper chain guide rail was broken, but the hub bolts were intact and torqued.

• During disassembly, I followed the Beisan procedures and in addition to that I marked the components so I could reassemble the same way I found it.
  • It went as documented, except when I attempted to "Fully retard exhaust camshaft timing", this did NOT occur: "splined shaft can be seen protruding from sprocket hub front when camshaft is at adjustment end position" I took time to try and achieve this, but was unable to, so I proceeded. The
• During assembly, I encountered some of the same imperfections as mentioned in this thread.
  • I assembled it the same way it was when I started for those things that I can be sure of.
• While checking timing with a BMW timing tool, here is what I find
  • sometimes the timing is spot on after a full engine rotation to get the cylinder 1 cams back in position.
  • sometimes I have to rotate the crank forward a couple mm from the mark, but sometimes I have to test cam timing before the crankshaft is at TDC per other suggestions.

So, I've read all of this a couple times. I've also read the BMW documentation.

I've come to the conclusion we are simply OCD and this minor variance doesnt really matter.

Why?

Per that document "The DME knows the position of the crankshaft from the signals provided by the crankshaft sensor. From the information provided by the camshaft sensors, the relative positions of the camshafts to the crankshaft are identifiable. On that basis, therefore, the DME is able modulate the relative positions of the camshafts to the crankshaft by controlling the relevant solenoid valves. The DME has stored data maps for the positions of the camshafts relative to the crankshaft. Those data maps essentially take account of the following parameters: Engine Speed, Throttle valve position, Coolant Temp.

Some of this minor variance must be due to slack in the chain without oil pressure on the tensioner. Some of this could also be attributable to the fact there is no oil pressure in the VANOS cylinders.

[Arinb12]

Passed vanos test and all working now!
This linked thread will explain why.
https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...os-adaptations
thank you to everyone in this thread and in PM who helped me with timing and thoughts about problems!

[maupineda]

Okay so someone help me understand what the hell is going on!

Situation.

New/2nd hand vanos. (Used exhaust piston from my old vanos as this ones piston was missing a seal)
Vanos pressure tests confirm hot engine pressure of 115 bar.
Leakdown fast, accumulator still bad.

Engine timed as per using the solid tensioner and standard preload method.

Engine turned over 10 times post vanos install. Checked at TDC.

Exhaust, bridge flat, pin slides in like butter.
Inlet, bridge flat, pin needs some pressure to slide in.

Ecuworx tool shows (photo):




Exhaust 5.0 adaptation?!
Inlet shows -1.0 (makes sense as pin didn't slide in easy but bridge did lay flat)


DIS shows (photo) the same adaptations.



Vanos test FAILS?! - WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?! (photo)








image widget

i translated this, and the message seems to be more of an error during the test routine. I saw you posted after the car passes, but if this was an actual error I would initially thought bad timing or a severe leak through the pistons seals or valve body.

“last entered vanos position is outside the tolerance range.
method:
control times: check vanos hydraulic unit“

[maupineda]

Questions and comments:
Why the test only commanded the vanos to move Intake to 130 deg (max retarded which is an easy motion) and not to 70 deg (max advanced which is a more difficult motion)? And, for the Ex cam, why commanded to to to max advanced (128 deg) instead of max retarded (83 deg)?

ISTA test value:
For exhaust cam: The actual steering advanced is 128, which is perfect. But the actual steering retarded is 79, which is not too good when the command value is 83 I assume. So 4 deg off here.
For intake cam: 70 deg advanced and 130 retarded and so they are perfect with zero error.

the DME commanded both, if you look at the images you will see it went to both opposite ends for both cams.

about your comment on the exhaust side being 4deg off, that is not the case. The DME commanded 80, and saw 79, that is just 1deg off, and yes, though not perfect, the adaptations would offset that.

For the Z4M the results are laid out differently, but values are the same. Also ISTA reports the range that is acceptable for DME, all my values where right in the middle (nominal) except for the exhaust, which was 1deg off from the mid point.

[eacmen]

The “true” VANOS test is done with DIS.

[maupineda]

The menus maybe different, but I go into the DME and from there I choose F6, which typically is “activate” menu, then once there I choose VANOS menu, which is F6 also in the Z4M. So, to recap I do…

1 choose your chassis
2 choose the DME module
3 F6 activate options
4 F6 VANOS Menu

it gives the adaptations as shown but also the requested v actuals when the engine is running

[sapote]

I did, it shows nothing and I see no vanos options in my INPA unfortunately.

Maybe maupineda can tell us how he got the INPA test report.

[Cubieman]

Not sure if this would help or not but it appears tool32 can pull vanos information.

https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/special-interests/coding-tuning/34304-need-help-doing-vanos-test-with-inpa

[sapote]

do you think it could be down to an error (that somehow has manifested now) with my camshaft position sensors? Or throttle position sensors?

Maybe the exhaust one to be specific?

From your test report, I don't see any difference between DME commanded timing valves and the actual values so things look fine, and I don't understand why it used 5 deg adaptation when there is no error in the timing.

[Arinb12]

Google it if you already have INPA installed.

I did, it shows nothing and I see no vanos options in my INPA unfortunately.

I will keep trying.

do you think it could be down to an error (that somehow has manifested now) with my camshaft position sensors? Or throttle position sensors?

Maybe the exhaust one to be specific?

[sapote]

Google it if you already have INPA installed.