PCS Tuning (Paul Claude) or HTE Performance (Hassan) for Karbonius CSL airbox tune?

[thegenius46m]

It seems to me the CSL uses Alpha-N with MAP compensation (it is not running MAP in the traditional speak as that would imply the MAP is the primary load sensor which doesn't seem to be the case)

if you cant run alpha-N without notable seat of the pants driveability / hesitation issues there is an actual issue with the ECU map or a mechanical/sensor issue. Alpha-N with MAP compensation is the better setup over Alpha-N with baro compensation

Based on what? The DME is literally pulling data from the sensor directly to manipulate fueling based on pressure changes.

[digger]

Based on what? The DME is literally pulling data from the sensor directly to manipulate fueling based on pressure changes.

you've also described exactly when MAP compensation is i.e. manipulating fuelling based on the sensor readings.

i don't know for sure exactly how the CSL ecu does it but my comments are based on what is commonly used in the aftermarket tuning world and experience using MAP on other ECU's and setups and also what i recall reading previously. On a NA engine typically you wouldn't use MAP as primary load fuel as the signal is rarely good (fluctuates and resolution/range relatively low) enough even with a balance tube and much less useable than a single throttle plenum engine. You need to do some fairly specific things to get a good vacuum reading from an ITB engine for tuning and most ECU dont have capabilty.

Having run/setup cammed ITB engines on standalone with pure Alpha-N (internal MAP as a baro sensor only) and MAP load based (TPS only as throttle transient) i always found that Alpha-N with baro superior as it restricted the area of the map that gets used so you loose fidelity. Going to Alpha-N and MAP compensation is the icing on the cake. These days with closed look wideband and short and long term trims learning arguably it is less important.

[thegenius46m]

you've also described exactly when MAP compensation is i.e. manipulating fuelling based on the sensor readings.

i don't know for sure exactly how the CSL ecu does it but my comments are based on what is commonly used in the aftermarket tuning world and experience using MAP on other ECU's and setups and also what i recall reading previously. On a NA engine typically you wouldn't use MAP as primary load fuel as the signal is rarely good (fluctuates and resolution/range relatively low) enough even with a balance tube and much less useable than a single throttle plenum engine. You need to do some fairly specific things to get a good vacuum reading from an ITB engine for tuning and most ECU dont have capabilty.

Having run/setup cammed ITB engines on standalone with pure Alpha-N (internal MAP as a baro sensor only) and MAP load based (TPS only as throttle transient) i always found that Alpha-N with baro superior as it restricted the area of the map that gets used so you loose fidelity. Going to Alpha-N and MAP compensation is the icing on the cake. These days with closed look wideband and short and long term trims learning arguably it is less important.

You are forgetting one key factor that makes Alpha-N junk... It cannot compensate for pressure changes at varying elevations to alter fueling. That's fine if the car never leaves sea level or the elevation level it was tuned at, but honestly that's a little unrealistic for most people to assume that scenario. Buddy on here had alpha N and lives at 5k elevation but travels to and from a sea level area every few weeks. He said the alpha N sucked where he lives but down at sea level it was ok. He just switched to MAP with a retune and said the car feels MUCH better.

With these cars, only the MSS54HP CSL DME supports the MAP sensor integration. Its hard coded into the firmware to look for and use this sensor to alter fueling and other factors and is how the car came from the factory for a real CSL car.

If you have a CSL converted ECU and have Testo you can actually read the pressure and voltage values of the sensor live. I'm sure MAP is far superior on a stand alone ECU though like Motec or Emtron which lets you take advantage far superior functionality to better tune these cars. MSS54x is honestly kinda antiquated tech these days but it's what these cars came with and for 99% of people that don't want to go standalone it does the job.

[terra]

You are forgetting one key factor that makes Alpha-N junk... It cannot compensate for pressure changes at varying elevations to alter fueling. That's fine if the car never leaves sea level or the elevation level it was tuned at, but honestly that's a little unrealistic for most people to assume that scenario. Buddy on here had alpha N and lives at 5k elevation but travels to and from a sea level area every few weeks.

Not strictly true. The DME does have a pressure sensor on the board itself, and it does actually keep track of altitude. But as obioban alluded to, real data tends to work better than assumptions. Esepcially in our cases where our DMEs are running basically 30 year old processors and just can't process a truly accurate model in the same way modern DMEs can.

Realistically, an actual MAF setup would be best *if* we weren't limited on intake diameter and such.

[rjsimz]

Hey guys,
I just installed the CSL airbox with the MAP sensor installed and wired and CSL IAT sensor. I was recently tuned by HTE performance and about 30 miles in I was getting misfires in cylinder 3 & 6. I kept in contact with hassan at HTE and we reflashed it back to stock. I changed my one year old spark plugs, coils, and I sent my injectors in for cleaning. I put the freshly cleaned injectors in and ran it on idle for a while for with no problems. Hassan flashed the tune again and for another 10 it was running just fine but after a mild pull, it started misfiring again. This time in 2 & 6. The shop didn’t keep the labels on the injectors like I had them when they gave them back to me, so unfortunately I didn’t know which injectors came out of which cylinder. It was running perfectly before the tune and I just find it pretty coincidental that it starts misfiring after I got the tune. Next step I would think would be to replace injectors with brand new since it switched cylinders? Unfortunately new Bosch injectors are back ordered. Advice?

[EthanolTurbo]

Hey guys,
I just installed the CSL airbox with the MAP sensor installed and wired and CSL IAT sensor. I was recently tuned by HTE performance and about 30 miles in I was getting misfires in cylinder 3 & 6. I kept in contact with hassan at HTE and we reflashed it back to stock. I changed my one year old spark plugs, coils, and I sent my injectors in for cleaning. I put the freshly cleaned injectors in and ran it on idle for a while for with no problems. Hassan flashed the tune again and for another 10 it was running just fine but after a mild pull, it started misfiring again. This time in 2 & 6. The shop didn’t keep the labels on the injectors like I had them when they gave them back to me, so unfortunately I didn’t know which injectors came out of which cylinder. It was running perfectly before the tune and I just find it pretty coincidental that it starts misfiring after I got the tune. Next step I would think would be to replace injectors with brand new since it switched cylinders? Unfortunately new Bosch injectors are back ordered. Advice?

Time for upgraded bigger injectors if you're making any decent power.

[rjsimz]

Time for upgraded bigger injectors if you're making any decent power.

I’m stock with just the airbox…

[Sprp85]

Miles and maintenance list?

[rjsimz]

Miles and maintenance list?

95500 miles, rebuilt beisan Vanos and rod bearings at the same time 1.5k miles ago. Spark plugs, coils, cleaned injectors.

[eacmen]

Hey guys,
I just installed the CSL airbox with the MAP sensor installed and wired and CSL IAT sensor. I was recently tuned by HTE performance and about 30 miles in I was getting misfires in cylinder 3 & 6. I kept in contact with hassan at HTE and we reflashed it back to stock. I changed my one year old spark plugs, coils, and I sent my injectors in for cleaning. I put the freshly cleaned injectors in and ran it on idle for a while for with no problems. Hassan flashed the tune again and for another 10 it was running just fine but after a mild pull, it started misfiring again. This time in 2 & 6. The shop didn’t keep the labels on the injectors like I had them when they gave them back to me, so unfortunately I didn’t know which injectors came out of which cylinder. It was running perfectly before the tune and I just find it pretty coincidental that it starts misfiring after I got the tune. Next step I would think would be to replace injectors with brand new since it switched cylinders? Unfortunately new Bosch injectors are back ordered. Advice?

Have you checked compression?

Any codes?

Fuel quality/age?

Still on original fuel pump and fuel filter?


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[rjsimz]

Have you checked compression?

Any codes?

Fuel quality/age?

Still on original fuel pump and fuel filter?


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have not checked compression

Codes were cylinder 3 & 6 misfires

fuel wasn’t old.

not original fuel pump carfax says replaced in 2019. I bought a new fuel filter just in case that wasn’t changed and should be coming next week.

just weird to me that it would start misfiring after the tune was done. Car was running great before. I guess it just introduced some problems?

[eacmen]

have not checked compression

Codes were cylinder 3 & 6 misfires

fuel wasn’t old.

not original fuel pump carfax says replaced in 2019. I bought a new fuel filter just in case that wasn’t changed and should be coming next week.

just weird to me that it would start misfiring after the tune was done. Car was running great before. I guess it just introduced some problems?

When you start pushing limits any worn parts make themselves known.


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[rjsimz]

When you start pushing limits any worn parts make themselves known.


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yep, I can go back at it and change fuel injectors out and swap to see if it changes cylinders again. Just disappointing that the “cleaning” didn’t work out if it is in fact the injectors.

[rjsimz]

Just purchased a fuel filter…gotta love the rabbit hole

[Thoglan]

https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/threads/what-have-i-done-wrong-carbon-airbox-4-4-final-drive-and-remap-now-has-issues.253081/

Interesting thread on m3cutters regarding PCS. Supposedly pending court action.