Brake pads for Track days

[R717]

Yea I think I wasn’t cooling down sufficiently. Is there anything I should do besides let them get air and brake as lightly as possible on cool down lap? Should I be braking more on the cool down lap so that temp change is slower? I knew not to use my parking brake.

Don't see where anyone responded to your question here. Try to get as much cooling as possible on the cool down lap. I typically try to coast/engine brake to my vmin for most turns. Usually only a few slow turns do i actually use the brakes, such as 1 and 5 at summit point, 1 and toe of the boot at the glen, etc.

Although they run hot and are hard on rotors, I love PFC-08s. I had tried some ferodos and others and the pad material actually compresses reducing feel and giving a long pedal compared to the 08s. I went through quarts and quarts of brake fluid before realizing it was butter stick pads. I run them on the street all track season, and actually think the noise helps with safety by waking up the simpleton commuters watching their cellphones instead of driving.

[wahsm]

Do you have a vendor that you prefer?

Where ever is best price, actually forget where I got these ones from.

[wahsm]

Don't see where anyone responded to your question here. Try to get as much cooling as possible on the cool down lap. I typically try to coast/engine brake to my vmin for most turns. Usually only a few slow turns do i actually use the brakes, such as 1 and 5 at summit point, 1 and toe of the boot at the glen, etc.

Although they run hot and are hard on rotors, I love PFC-08s. I had tried some ferodos and others and the pad material actually compresses reducing feel and giving a long pedal compared to the 08s. I went through quarts and quarts of brake fluid before realizing it was butter stick pads. I run them on the street all track season, and actually think the noise helps with safety by waking up the simpleton commuters watching their cellphones instead of driving.

I would also add to make sure you keep the speed up at least to the point where you only have to lightly braking. You still want to get as much airflow over the brakes during cool down as you can. Crawling around the track on a cool down doesn't help. I know you are not stating that in your reply, but always surprised how many people crawl around on a cool down lap and end up park the car with smoking brakes.

[heinzboehmer]

There was a discussion on fb group that VAC’s airdam design works better than flexible duct. Thinking of doing similar experiment between duct and airdam.

Did you use temp paint or the stick on?

Do you have a link to the airdam? Can't find anything on their website. I've already made these, so probably won't change them, but still curious about the design.

I used a fluke IR thermometer. For sure not the best way to measure brake temps, but I tried it out before the track day and it seemed to give very repeatable results.

[eacmen]

Do you have a link to the airdam? Can't find anything on their website. I've already made these, so probably won't change them, but still curious about the design.

I used a fluke IR thermometer. For sure not the best way to measure brake temps, but I tried it out before the track day and it seemed to give very repeatable results.

Sorry I meant vorshlag. Always get those two V names mixed up. Here is a link:

https://vorshlag-store.com/products/vorshlag-bmw-e46-m3-brake-cooling-deflector-kit

I've seen alot of people use either the stickers or the paint:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075MR5LBW/

The paint will indicate the max temp seen by the brakes. So you'll get more of an "on track" measurement versus after a cool down lap and parking in the paddock. Really only useful for caliper temp tho, which is usually what you care about when considering fluid boil temp and optimal pad compound temps.

For your experiment the IR gun is totally valid tool to answer "do brake ducts work or not". I've seen several folks plug up brake ducts on cooler track days because their brakes never reach operating temp with them.

[Gearhead55]

Don't see where anyone responded to your question here. Try to get as much cooling as possible on the cool down lap. I typically try to coast/engine brake to my vmin for most turns. Usually only a few slow turns do i actually use the brakes, such as 1 and 5 at summit point, 1 and toe of the boot at the glen, etc.

Although they run hot and are hard on rotors, I love PFC-08s. I had tried some ferodos and others and the pad material actually compresses reducing feel and giving a long pedal compared to the 08s. I went through quarts and quarts of brake fluid before realizing it was butter stick pads. I run them on the street all track season, and actually think the noise helps with safety by waking up the simpleton commuters watching their cellphones instead of driving.

Haha that’s a good point about running loud brakes on the street. That’s basically how I have been using my cool down laps already. The tracks i’m driving here in CA (Buttonwillow, Willow Springs) have areas that I can keep cooling down, not at track pace, but it’s better than sitting still in the paddock.

[heinzboehmer]

Sorry I meant vorshlag. Always get those two V names mixed up. Here is a link:

https://vorshlag-store.com/products/vorshlag-bmw-e46-m3-brake-cooling-deflector-kit

I've seen alot of people use either the stickers or the paint:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075MR5LBW/

The paint will indicate the max temp seen by the brakes. So you'll get more of an "on track" measurement versus after a cool down lap and parking in the paddock. Really only useful for caliper temp tho, which is usually what you care about when considering fluid boil temp and optimal pad compound temps.

For your experiment the IR gun is totally valid tool to answer "do brake ducts work or not". I've seen several folks plug up brake ducts on cooler track days because their brakes never reach operating temp with them.

Those vorshlag ducts look pretty cool. Very 911 GT3ish. A similar design would be great for the rear, if needed.

Also, thanks for the link to the stickers. I'll definitely grab some before my next track day.

[Crowley739]

Does anyone have experience with the vorshlag deflectors? Researching i saw good things on other cars but didn’t come across anything on our cars.

[eacmen]

Does anyone have experience with the vorshlag deflectors? Researching i saw good things on other cars but didn’t come across anything on our cars.

I do not. They seem to be very popular with the Mustang crowd.

Only downside is losing the heat barrier between brake rotor and suspension/ball joints. Ducted brake cooling with a backing plate still provides that heat barrier. Not a big deal but something to consider.

[Fresh1179]

I’m going to be running a new set of Ferodo DS1.11 ($700+?!)here in a few weeks on a relatively new AP 6 piston kit I got earlier this year. I’m hoping that they they offer more life.

I ran a staggered DTC-70/60 setup with the stock brakes for a couple of years and they have very high torque. If you are gutted then they have almost too much torque and will lighten the back end tremendously under hard braking. That being said, they were free…and I actually came to like the combination after a while, minus the slag they shed. I was also only getting about 5-6 days out of the front set, sometimes less, so that was an issue. It wasn’t really an issue because they were free…

A lot of guys I know run PFC-08’s and like them. I tried them and they are not bad, I would rate their wear as about %25 more than the Hawks. Modulation was marginally better but nothing to write home about IMHO. That being said, people swear by them.

Someone recommended a Pagid RST line pad to me a month ago at VIR so they are on my list.

People are much smarter than I am, but I cannot run 3 inch hose in this car without breaking something. Having been burned by Hard products 15 times before, I learned my lesson and bought their “low profile kit”. Cracked on first day. The backing is plates are surprisingly okay, it’s just a matter of getting the hose from the bumper to the backing plate without burning through hose. I’ve seen some people route hose through the “diaper” which will likely be my next move. Even with this design, I don’t think 275’s would clear the hose without limiters. Basically I think you need rack stops or limiters to successfully run 3 inch hose from the bumper inserts to the backing plate, but again, people are more crafty than I am. I might pick up a pair or Vorshlag deflectors just to check them out. The mustang guys at VIR love them.

If you go Hawk on the stock brakes make sure you tap the brakes on a straightaway (same for all pads on stock or aftermarket without anti-knock back springs) or the rear end will be dancing around like Ricky Martin circa 1996.


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[repoman89]

^ I ran my DS1.11 pads on my 996 kit for the first time this past weekend .. it was most excellent. I am still a pretty new lower intermediate level track driver but even so threshold braking, trail braking and just staying out of ABS was very doable with the level of modulation and feel out of the pedal. They worked similarly all the way from cold to full temp once bedded in. And best of all there was a ton of pad material left over after two full days .. last year I wore through most of the OEM Textars in two days. The Textars certainly worked, but pedal feel would change throughout a session (fade I guess but still retained full stopping power) and the pedal is much softer and tough to modulate overall. Great for the street though and nice not squealing like a subway coming to a stop.

Oh and the dust on my wheels from the ds1.11 was surprisingly minimal when I pulled them off to clean, and easy to remove with a simple half assed wash with optimum no rinse

I haven’t had any knockback problems with either pad on the 996 kit despite no springs.

[Pklauser]

Reporting back after my weekend on Summit Point Shenandoah with the DTC-70s. Coming from the XP10s, the Hawks bite a fair amount more, but in the dry I actually found it reasonable to modulate. Shenandoah is tricky to stay out of the ABS since a lot of the track is pretty rough, but that's also something I need to work on myself. I also ceramic coated my wheels before this event and even though it rained, it made getting the Hawk dust off significantly easier, like night and day easier.

I'm curious to see if I took the car back to WGI with the DTC-70s if they would hold up better under the heat than the XP10s, Shenandoah and WGI is certainly not an apples/apples comparison. The free-ness of the Hawks is a huge selling point for me, so I may take a swing at those Vorshlag ducts at some point. I'd like to avoid ducting hose if I can, though losing the shielding of my balljoints in the front is a little meh.

[Estoril]

Reporting back after my weekend on Summit Point Shenandoah with the DTC-70s. Coming from the XP10s, the Hawks bite a fair amount more, but in the dry I actually found it reasonable to modulate. Shenandoah is tricky to stay out of the ABS since a lot of the track is pretty rough, but that's also something I need to work on myself. I also ceramic coated my wheels before this event and even though it rained, it made getting the Hawk dust off significantly easier, like night and day easier.

I'm curious to see if I took the car back to WGI with the DTC-70s if they would hold up better under the heat than the XP10s, Shenandoah and WGI is certainly not an apples/apples comparison. The free-ness of the Hawks is a huge selling point for me, so I may take a swing at those Vorshlag ducts at some point. I'd like to avoid ducting hose if I can, though losing the shielding of my balljoints in the front is a little meh.

If you are into ABS on Shenandoah, then you are likely over-braking. Or having problems modulating. Shenandoah is an inertia track. Getting into ABS is just going to really slow you down give it is 20-21 turns (depending upon configuration). When I instruct Shenandoah I am emphasizing brake release based upon their experience and tires. Were you using an Instructor?

There are a lot of turns there that you can safely close on a car ahead by braking better. Braking is a far more complex subject than most drivers understand. Ross Bentley gave a 2-1/2 hour class on just braking. It was great material that benefited everyone who attended.

[repoman89]

If you are into ABS on Shenandoah, then you are likely over-braking. Or having problems modulating. Shenandoah is an inertia track. Getting into ABS is just going to really slow you down give it is 20-21 turns (depending upon configuration). When I instruct Shenandoah I am emphasizing brake release based upon their experience and tires. Were you using an Instructor?

There are a lot of turns there that you can safely close on a car ahead by braking better. Braking is a far more complex subject than most drivers understand. Ross Bentley gave a 2-1/2 hour class on just braking. It was great material that benefited everyone who attended.

Any chance that course is available to watch anywhere, either free or paid?

[bigjae46]

First, I would highly recommend against using track pads on the street. Beside less bite and less performance when outside of its designed operating range, you will destroy your rotors fairly quickly. Track pads are extremely abrasive when below their operating temp range. Track pads are designed to stick to the rotor vs using pressure and friction. If you examine the brake dust on your wheels after driving track pads on the street, it will likely be shiny...that is bits worn off your rotor.

The biggest issue you run into is if you're driving on the highway for awhile and then need the brakes in a hurry...could get interesting.

I change pads at the track when I drove my car to/from the track. A big reason why I went with stoptech...super easy to do.