The Official Bring A Trailer (BaT) Thread

[maw1124]

but I see large bid increments like that all the time on BAT.

Yeah, I see it all the time and all the time it gets the side eye. People have to stop confusing commonality with legitimacy. A lot of silly, stupid, illegitimate shit ("shenanigans") happens "all the time."

For me, it's a flaw in BaT's system, that they cannot track and police all the shill bidders. Does anyone know how many bids fall through and people get banned annually? Or what percentage of those are shill bidders vs the car not living to expectations in person? My guess is the answers are No and No. Which is why, as pointed out, people need to be careful when bidding on BaT.

This is especially true when the large price jumps look like back door reserve setting by shill bidders. oceansize didn't call it "back door reserve setting by shill bidders" expressly, so I am. Everyone knows the fight with BaT when listing your car is about the reserve you want vs the reserve they'll allow. The big jumps look like a way around that fight, at least to me -- a way to list your car to an audience that might overpay, then to make sure they overpay for your car.

maw

EDIT... by the way, having observed this with other cars that suddenly drew the eye of "future classic" appreciation attention, this is the one CLEAR downside of these cars becoming more valuable. Less and less are people interested in the car as opposed to its monetary value. The discussions, the bidding activity, all of it starts to tilt towards money, which tends to degrade the experience. The basic transaction of a car hobby is that you value the car more than the money -- you give up the money willingly in exchange for the experience. So talking about how the car brings money is just silly. Boards like this one help to keep the ownership experience pure and properly focused, but eventually the money focus seeps in, and people start doing all sorts of silly shit. "Restoring" cars with cheap paint, half assed work and Chinese parts, shill bidding on BaT, all of it.

/rant over...my bad/

[lvm3sm46]

The basic transaction of a car hobby is that you value the car more than the money -- you give up the money willingly in exchange for the experience.

This is priceless

[maw1124]

Nice example here … TechnoViolet E36M Manual Coupe, reasonably well cared for… 156k miles… https://carsandbids.com/auctions/KdZ...9-bmw-m3-coupe … I don’t know whether these go up or down in value from here, which is why you don’t see feeding frenzies for them… still great car for whatever money it trades for (likely under $20k)… this car would have been $12-$15k when I was looking back in ‘09.

maw

[elbert]

Yeah, I see it all the time and all the time it gets the side eye.

I think the problem is it's hard to prove. There was one case on Cars and Bids -- the seller messed up by posting a video of the car using the shill account. He got banned, but other than a slip up like that, I wouldn't expect to see much in the way of enforcement.

Here is that auction:
https://carsandbids.com/auctions/r4R...03-acura-32-cl

[Duck360198]

Maybe I've grown numb to the large increments because of this crazy market. I'm curious what the PY brings this time around. Initially, when that PY was originally listed, I was thinking holy cow that's a huge price for a 2001. And to be honest the increments didn't bother me. Especially since the winning bidder bid twice. But with this second listing it really makes you wonder. As part of the shenanigans I just assume the seller is thinking even if they don't like the reserve BaT offers, they'll just have someone bid it up. Who knows.

What I'm hearing more often are people getting BaT cars and being very disappointed in them due to sellers not being upfront. You're going to have buyers who will fly out and look at a car, ask all the right questions privately, etc. and place a proper bid. But on the flip side you have others who see BaT as cars being turnkey and honest sellers and don't even bother with PPI's. Depending on what someone is selling, I feel like many sellers are banking on people not doing their due diligence and some will certainly take advantage of that.

I purchased the 2005 IB/Platinum M3 a few years back. It was an 18K mile car. As a one-owner car, even with mods, I figured what could possibly be wrong. Well, disappointment ensued. Many scratches, paint wasn't the best, the previous owner installed everything himself and there were some questionable installation methods. Then, dealing with the legality of the extra parts after the auction was a blast. I learned my lesson on that car. Fun while it lasted. Of course, if that car were to show up on BaT today it's probably close to double what I paid. Hindsight.

[oceansize]

Maybe I've grown numb to the large increments because of this crazy market. I'm curious what the PY brings this time around. Initially, when that PY was originally listed, I was thinking holy cow that's a huge price for a 2001. And to be honest the increments didn't bother me. Especially since the winning bidder bid twice. But with this second listing it really makes you wonder. As part of the shenanigans I just assume the seller is thinking even if they don't like the reserve BaT offers, they'll just have someone bid it up. Who knows.

What I'm hearing more often are people getting BaT cars and being very disappointed in them due to sellers not being upfront. You're going to have buyers who will fly out and look at a car, ask all the right questions privately, etc. and place a proper bid. But on the flip side you have others who see BaT as cars being turnkey and honest sellers and don't even bother with PPI's. Depending on what someone is selling, I feel like many sellers are banking on people not doing their due diligence and some will certainly take advantage of that.

I purchased the 2005 IB/Platinum M3 a few years back. It was an 18K mile car. As a one-owner car, even with mods, I figured what could possibly be wrong. Well, disappointment ensued. Many scratches, paint wasn't the best, the previous owner installed everything himself and there were some questionable installation methods. Then, dealing with the legality of the extra parts after the auction was a blast. I learned my lesson on that car. Fun while it lasted. Of course, if that car were to show up on BaT today it's probably close to double what I paid. Hindsight.

If the market trends continue and the e46 m3's reputation continues to improve we will all definitely have to accept large increment bids but I'm not sure we are there just yet (for most e46 m3s). I was watching the original auction for that PY back when it went down and something I noticed on the bidder was that he had 93 bids and 0 (that is right zero) wins. 93 bids spread across a huge number of cars to boot. I was interested in this car and my spidey sense was going off big time.

[maw1124]

I'll repeat: in other car boards people are CERTAIN that Marty Byrde is that 0 for 93 bidder... and 4 years later, the Byrdes are still in business.

I'm not a buyer so it really doesn't matter to me. But if you are I think you should be careful. Chasing these as hot cars now, you're late anyway, so there's that.

maw

[Duck360198]

If the market trends continue and the e46 m3's reputation continues to improve we will all definitely have to accept large increment bids but I'm not sure we are there just yet (for most e46 m3s). I was watching the original auction for that PY back when it went down and something I noticed on the bidder was that he had 93 bids and 0 (that is right zero) wins. 93 bids spread across a huge number of cars to boot. I was interested in this car and my spidey sense was going off big time.

See I look past that because when he bid $222,222 for a Toyota GT it's just like it's to be a part of an auction to say you actually bid on it. Whereas the PY was definitely a bold bid. Don't know...guess if I bid on the PY and win I can ask the seller myself. Ha! I want a PY car bad, but it's gotta be the right one to justify the premium. Not sure a 2001, regardless of any history, is right for me.

I am curious about your thoughts on the $80K-$90K cars though. Are the lower mileage, clean, original cars worth these prices in your eyes? Those prices here to stay or just a product of the current market?

What would you guys think a 16K mile, PY, '04, SMG, Black Leather, Sunroof, no other special options car is worth? And I don't mean "it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay." That one person who is willing to pay a massive price for PY aside, what is a fair asking price?

[maw1124]

I am curious about your thoughts on the $80K-$90K cars though. Are the lower mileage, clean, original cars worth these prices in your eyes? Those prices here to stay or just a product of the current market? ... What would you guys think a 16K mile, PY, '04, SMG, Black Leather, Sunroof, no other special options car is worth?

It's hard for me to see these selling for original MSRP, actually. I just don't understand it and call that "current market" chasing. I mean, HALF of MSRP for a 15 year old car is killing it without the streets flooded with money, IMO. But the streets have been flooded with money for so long, it may just be the new reality. The BaT price tracker dot plot kinda tells a clear story though.

What you've described looks like a $50k car to me on the high end ($16k miles, '04). That said, only the SMG will help you win at that number. If you know of one with a seller who's not looking to max out on BaT, starting at $45k wouldn't be insulting, IMO.

maw

EDIT: Consider this non-BaT example... https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds...3/2535948.html ... '04 PY 88k miles, SMG Vert, trunk lost to stereo "upgrade" on a factory head unit with bent wheels... OK, dream on... in this market, you'll pay for low odometer though... and that's likely to be the case from here out.

[elbert]

I think the problem is it's hard to prove. There was one case on Cars and Bids -- the seller messed up by posting a video of the car using the shill account. He got banned, but other than a slip up like that, I wouldn't expect to see much in the way of enforcement.

Here is that auction:
https://carsandbids.com/auctions/r4R...03-acura-32-cl

The other (cynical) thought I had is that maybe BaT wants these shill bidders -- after all, they do make a percentage off the selling price.
Maybe they only ban people dumb enough to get caught only because it would affect their integrity, which would then affect future listings (and profits).

[lvm3sm46]

I would much rather check auto trader to find a low mileage car and get as much info, videos, etc as I could then to bid on something I have no idea where it will end up. Also avoid the biggest chance of not getting it.

BAT is a racket.

[jet_dogg]

It's hard for me to see these selling for original MSRP, actually. I just don't understand it and call that "current market" chasing. I mean, HALF of MSRP for a 15 year old car is killing it without the streets flooded with money, IMO. But the streets have been flooded with money for so long, it may just be the new reality. The BaT price tracker dot plot kinda tells a clear story though.

What you've described looks like a $50k car to me on the high end ($16k miles, '04). That said, only the SMG will help you win at that number. If you know of one with a seller who's not looking to max out on BaT, starting at $45k wouldn't be insulting, IMO.

maw

I'm with maw on this one point for point. My car stickered for 56k and can't imagine buying an old ass used example for so much unless it was literally a museum piece time capsule that bmw themselves maintained. I'd pay exactly zero for py but objective value for something low mileage like that should be worth 35k, in this market maybe 50k.

[02_lsb]

I miss the old m3forum when we all owned depreciated shitboxes.

[dukeofchen]

I miss the old m3forum when we all owned depreciated shitboxes.

As a depreciated shitbox-era buyer who hasn't gotten any richer in the intervening years, preach. 🤣

[maw1124]

I miss the old m3forum when we all owned depreciated shitboxes.

I was there... my car was never a depreciated shitbox... but I understand this feeling when money spoils the fun... but there's hope... hell, when I bought, people had moved on from these and were all over the E92 cars... I just happened to think they were all wrong.

This car is going to Amelia Island ... https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds...#&gid=1&pid=17... I was thinking of going this year (good times)... I've observed over the years that some "sleeper" collector cars don't do well at auctions. The crowd isn't on forums or youtube and just don't really appreciate what they're looking at, especially not German makes. I expect these M cars to be one of those.

If you're in the market, this might be worth the plane ticket. If you can drive over, all to the good. You might have to outbid the flippers though. It appears to be this car... https://germancarsforsaleblog.com/2001-bmw-m3-coupe-2/ ... clearly it didn't move on ebay for six figures... Oy!

maw