The Official Bring A Trailer (BaT) Thread

[MTiz]

Weird car. Ugly, horrible interior and seats. Why go through the effort of stuffing a V10 and partial aluminum chassis and install a seat that can't hold you still? When I bought my C63 AMG i was cross shopping e39 vs e60 vs the AMG. I bought the AMG because of the seats, sound, effortless torque, and all around performance but the e39 was a clear second and the e60 was never really in the running. I then bought a 2021 Mach 1 (manual) to have something that sounds even more awesome than that V10 (Mustang does sound better, period) and weighs a ton. The e60 is just this sort of weird pile of weirdness.

I disagree with quite literally everything you said here. The W204 doesn't look good to me, the interior looks cheap, and it doesn't sound better than the v10. I'll give you torque but that's not really what M cars were made for so I'm not sure what you expected. S550 Mustangs are cool but zero cabin space (and also don't sound better than the V10).

But I respect your opinion.

[stephen]

I’m reading all this E46M v E39M v E60M, sound, track, whatever … and as far as I’m concerned, @ocean has it right. Buy an AMG V8 and you’ll forget all about all of those cars. Full stop. I can enjoy the E46M for what it is because I already know what it will never be. Effortless torque from almost any gear at almost any speed is a formula for addiction… #AMG_crack

The AMGs sound good but IMO they’re flat; it’s got a tone that doesn’t get better the higher you rev it. The other issue is that you can’t get a 3 pedal AMG. If I want auto and effortless torque, I’ll stick to my 335d.

[Obioban]

Yeah, the AMG doesn't do it for me. Automatic is an instant disqualifier, interior is pretty bad (not that e60 isn't), and my least favorite thing about the dynamics of my e39 is the torquey engine-- the very characteristic that dominates the AMG driving experience.

[George Hill]

Thanks and agree. Going all clear and leaving side the grills as is. Front grille is chrome.

Mr. Wolfe

Why not offer both options?

[oceansize]

I disagree with quite literally everything you said here. The W204 doesn't look good to me, the interior looks cheap, and it doesn't sound better than the v10. I'll give you torque but that's not really what M cars were made for so I'm not sure what you expected. S550 Mustangs are cool but zero cabin space (and also don't sound better than the V10).

But I respect your opinion.

Everything is debatable except for the seats, torque, and exhaust note (C63 wins those and I can't really see a way around that) but I think in general the v10 has captivated people to an extent that they overlook just how badly (generically?) styled the e60's are, remember there was absolutely no love from enthusiasts for a long long time with respect to the aesthetics of an e60. What happened? Same thing that will happen to current generation of M3. Everyone screams my god look at that ugly bastard but then their opinion softens as time goes on and the repeated viewings erode away objectivity. Let me remind everyone with the video below and unfortunately it still rings true. To quote Clarkson "The new 5 series is an ugly car", "it sounds like a diesel". It wasn't just Clarkson either, the car was not well received by most. Performance wise there is no doubt it is good and Clarkson and crew firmly stated this in part 2 of their series, I'm not arguing that but it isn't so good that I would want it over any of the cars I have because it doesn't overcome just how aesthetically unpleasing it really is. If I'm going to buy an ugly performance car I'm going to buy the current generation M3 (I get a monster with a nice interior and good seats) way before I buy an e60, particularly now that prices for a clean examples are escalating. The e46 m3 to me is the best looking car BMW ever produced, so clean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRwR1WH0rR8

[George Hill]

Best of both worlds?




But seriously, S85s are so glorious when they are sorted and I don't even hate the SMG transmission but I just swapped a M6 to MT and my its just a great driving experience. The swap to do right is expensive and definitely harder than the E46 SMG to MT but not terrible. I've been casually looking for a SMG E60 or 63 that needs a trans/clutch to swap for myself.

[oceansize]

And George throws down the trump card. Well played sir, well played

Best of both worlds?

[IamFODI]

The one thing I think the C63 does brilliantly is the sense of occasion when you drive it. It feels like an animal, but it'll restrain itself all day and will never actually bite you unless you do something extraordinarily stupid. It's almost eerily good in that respect. Yes it has dynamic disadvantages vs. many M cars, but those only matter some of the time; that sense of occasion matters at all times and is arguably more relevant for cars like this.

I'm also in the never-automatic camp, so as long as manual comparables exist, I'll never get an AMG car. But if I had to compare a C63 against a DCT E90M or something, I think I'd have a hard time.

[Mr. Wolfe]

Why not offer both options?

Well, I decided just to go back to all chrome as I am sure it is the safest bet.

Mr. Wolfe

[Obioban]

Everything is debatable except for the seats, torque, and exhaust note (C63 wins those and I can't really see a way around that) but I think in general the v10 has captivated people to an extent that they overlook just how badly (generically?) styled the e60's are, remember there was absolutely no love from enthusiasts for a long long time with respect to the aesthetics of an e60. What happened? Same thing that will happen to current generation of M3. Everyone screams my god look at that ugly bastard but then their opinion softens as time goes on and the repeated viewings erode away objectivity. Let me remind everyone with the video below and unfortunately it still rings true. To quote Clarkson "The new 5 series is an ugly car", "it sounds like a diesel". It wasn't just Clarkson either, the car was not well received by most. Performance wise there is no doubt it is good and Clarkson and crew firmly stated this in part 2 of their series, I'm not arguing that but it isn't so good that I would want it over any of the cars I have because it doesn't overcome just how aesthetically unpleasing it really is. If I'm going to buy an ugly performance car I'm going to buy the current generation M3 (I get a monster with a nice interior and good seats) way before I buy an e60, particularly now that prices for a clean examples are escalating. The e46 m3 to me is the best looking car BMW ever produced, so clean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRwR1WH0rR8

Sounds like a diesel *at idle*. Everywhere else, like a Lambo.

... and you only posted half of that video :P
(in the 2nd half he even mentions how good it sounds)

Part 2:

Generally, this was a Clarkson video strategy. Claim one thing at the beginning, the flip the script and give his actual thoughts at the end. If you just posted the first half of the CSL review, it would also be negative-- same deal.

[oceansize]

... and you only posted half of that video :P
(in the 2nd half he even mentions how good it sounds)

I pointed out clearly what Clarkson said in my comment concerning part 2 and my comments are really only concerned with aesthetics, interior, and seats for which there is no cheap fix (although startup noise is not good either). There is only changed opinions now that time has gone on with respect to its appearance now being "ok". The same will happen to the current M3 and you know it

[Obioban]

I pointed out clearly what Clarkson said in my comment concerning part 2 and my comments are really only concerned with aesthetics, interior, and seats for which there is no cheap fix (although startup noise is not good either). There is only changed opinions now that time has gone on with respect to its appearance now being "ok". The same will happen to the current M3 and you know it

Ha. It's not pretty, and it's maybe BMW worst ever interior (that or e36).

I think people's opinions of how a car looks are HUGELY effected by how it drives. I know I've thought several cars were ugly before driving them, but not after. The e60 M5 is the best driving mid size sedan ever produced (IMO). Like a smart/funny but average looking woman, it can raise the perception.

I don't really think the e60 actually competes with the E63. E63 is a muscle car, e60M is a 4 door sports car. Which of those is "better" is determined by which characteristics you want.

e39 is far more like the E63, dynamically. Both are torquey, a bit floppy, not great steering feel, and make V8 sounds. e63 is faster. e39 is manual, looks better, has a nicer interior, is nicer to work on, feels smaller on the road.

[maw1124]

[QUOTE=Obioban;n178805]
I don't really think it actually competes with the E63. E63 is a muscle car, e60M is a 4 door sports car. Which of those is "better" is determined by which characteristics you want.
[QUOTE]

So is your distinction here that one actually handles better? Or rather that one's steering "feels better" while handling. Is it feel or competence you're judging here?

Or is it simply that one has a manual (making it a "sports car") and the other one doesn't?

I don't have a dog in the hunt because I won't be driving a stick. But it is curious to me the conclusions being reached and why.

maw

[Obioban]

So is your distinction here that one actually handles better? Or rather that one's steering "feels better" while handling. Is it feel or competence you're judging here?

Or is it simply that one has a manual (making it a "sports car") and the other one doesn't?

I don't have a dog in the hunt because I won't be driving a stick. But it is curious to me the conclusions being reached and why.

maw

Steering feel, chassis feel, body control, engine dynamics, transmission.

The things that differentiate sports cars from cars.

To be clear, I'm only claiming the e60M is a 4 door sports car-- not the e39M. The e39 530i is far closer to a sports car than the e39 M5, IMO.

[tlow98]

After all this chat I’m just really glad I did not purchase an e39 M5 when given the chance recently. I want light or at least a lightweight feeling car with sharp dynamics and a more manic engine.

I’ve always wanted to tick the E39 M5 box, but if it’s my only ‘fun’ car ir sounds like I’d be disappointed. My ‘fun’ is mostly defined by low speed canyon roads at the limit of adhesion with just ‘ok’ tires. Fun enough to get the blood flowing but relatively low stakes.

appreciate the candid experience on this board. Also, we he most recent Carmudgeon on the e39 m5 line sup with what you guys mention as well.