MK20 -> MK60 Swap

[eacmen]

Awesome work! We discussed this in the track subforum, but if you are looking into doing this for a track/race car, worth looking into a mk20->mk60 Continental motorsport abs kit from https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/

I am in the process of doing this and will report back.

Are you having them tune it for you? Is the ABS tunable or just the DSC?


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[heinzboehmer]

Awesome work!

Thanks!

Wow, that looks like a BUNCH of work. Congrats, and thanks for the DIY!

... and to think I found going from 818.3 MK60 to 817.3 MK60 moderately annoying of a process

Thanks! Feels good to have the final facelift bit that I've wanted for a while now. Will be on track in a week or so and excited to try it out there.

And that's on the list of things to do! Although I'd like to hack up the 818.3 that I have to replicate the ZCP module. Seems like it will be basically impossible to decompile the software, but I'm hoping that it's basically the same between the two and that parameter changes are all that are needed. Will test that theory by populating the missing components for the M track mode pin to work. If that magically starts working, then that would be pretty good evidence that the changes between the two are just parameter adjustments.

You are a better man than me, I probably would have swapped the body harness lol. Nice work and I love the creativity.

Oh right! I forgot to add that as an option, I'll update my post above.

I was initially going to do this when I realized that I didn't want ~40 spliced/soldered wires under my carpet. However, my garage is tiny and taking the entire interior apart to swap the body harness would have been a MUCH bigger hassle than just making this adapter harness. For others with more space, swapping in an MK60 body harness might be a better option.

I feel like if you ask OP what time it is you will receive an enjoyable lecture on how to build a watch....

Lol, I've received similar comments from people before when they ask me how something works. Hope it's at least enjoyable for some!

Awesome work! We discussed this in the track subforum, but if you are looking into doing this for a track/race car, worth looking into a mk20->mk60 Continental motorsport abs kit from https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/

I am in the process of doing this and will report back.

Awesome, excited to see how your swap goes!

Awesome work op!

Some advice for those attempting this that are realoem savvy... post 9/02+ non-m e46s are very similar hardware wise to the M3 and if you are not planning on buying new hardlines and other misc pieces you will save a lot of time grabbing the hard lines from a junkyard car if you can find one in good shape. i just checked and the hardlines are indeed identical for non-m and M3 MK60 cars so if you're swapping lines I would either buy brand new from bmw or grab good condition ones from an Mk60 non-m car for cheap along with anything else while you're in there because the parts are cheap.

Thanks! You bring up a good point. IIRC, the only differences between the non-M and M3 MK60 systems are the master cylinder, the electrical module and that TPMS was optional on non-Ms (although that's just one wire and coding).

That being said, it's practically impossible to remove/install bent brake lines with the engine, transmission and gas tank still in the car. Even if you find a car in a junkyard that's missing these things, you'll probably end up deforming the lines when installing and will still have to do some work to get them back into shape. I guess it's a matter of preference, but, like you said, brand new (unbent) lines are cheap directly from BMW.

[CrookedCommie]

Are you having them tune it for you? Is the ABS tunable or just the DSC?


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Yeah, ABS has a motorsports flash on it. DSC, no, don't need that on the track car

[bigjae46]

I wish an 818.3 unit was able to be flashed.

I've been looking for a 813.3 but just finding an MK60 module is tricky.

[CrookedCommie]

I wish an 818.3 unit was able to be flashed.

I've been looking for a 813.3 but just finding an MK60 module is tricky.

The prices are crazy as well, $1-$2k for a 813.3.

[terra]

And that's on the list of things to do! Although I'd like to hack up the 818.3 that I have to replicate the ZCP module. Seems like it will be basically impossible to decompile the software, but I'm hoping that it's basically the same between the two and that parameter changes are all that are needed. Will test that theory by populating the missing components for the M track mode pin to work. If that magically starts working, then that would be pretty good evidence that the changes between the two are just parameter adjustments.

The actual software is different. How different is tough to say since to date no one has figured out how to dump it and post publicly. I've heard some claims that literally the only effective difference is the M-track button behavior, and I've seen others claim that there are actual maps/curves that are different. Supposedly the 813.3 and 817.3 variants have actual EEPROMs embedded into the controller and the 818.3 has a standard ROM (i.e not reprogrammable). Not sure how true that is. The few people who know anything are keeping very quiet.

I think things are basically at the point where it would probably be more fruitful trying to hack a newer DSC module (which have actual documented flash routines for WinKFP and such), but the other part of the issue is I have no idea what kind of code the CPU even executes to disassemble it. Doesn't seem to be ARM, PPC, tricore, 68k, or C16x like almost every other module used in BMWs.

[heinzboehmer]

Yeah, ABS has a motorsports flash on it. DSC, no, don't need that on the track car

If you haven't installed it yet, could you take pictures of the electrical module? I'm curious how they flashed the module. There should be some obvious cuts if they flashed the chips directly, but it'll be interesting to see if they can somehow flash it without opening it up.

[heinzboehmer]

The actual software is different. How different is tough to say since to date no one has figured out how to dump it and post publicly. Supposedly the 813.3 and 817.3 variants have actual EEPROMs embedded into the controller and the 818.3 has a standard ROM (i.e not reprogrammable). Not sure how true that is. The few people who know anything are keeping very quiet.

I think things are basically at the point where it would probably be more fruitful trying to hack a newer DSC module (which have actual documented flash routines for WinKFP and such), but the other part of the issue is I have no idea what kind of code the CPU even executes to disassemble it. Doesn't seem to be ARM, PPC, tricore, 68k, or C16x like almost every other module used in BMWs.

Recently heard from someone that it's custom specifically for the module, so it'll basically be impossible to disassemble without getting someone from TI to give us details. Are any newer modules physically plug and play with the MK60 valve body?

Also, do you know if the software between the non-M MK60 and the M3 MK60 is the same? Another forum member has cut up his non-M MK60, so if it's the same, it makes sense to mess around with that one.

[terra]

Recently heard from someone that it's custom specifically for the module, so it'll basically be impossible to disassemble without getting someone from TI to give us details. Are any newer modules physically plug and play with the MK60 valve body?

Also, do you know if the software between the non-M MK60 and the M3 MK60 is the same? Another forum member has cut up his non-M MK60, so if it's the same, it makes sense to mess around with that one.

They all report different internal software versions.

I'm not sure newer modules are plug and play with the valve body, but in theory it wouldn't be difficult to just get a whole new module + valve body combo to sit in there. Once upon a time I was thinking of retrofitting the Z4M DSC module (MK60e5) (which I still have lying around in a bin somewhere) to get some of the newer features like hill hold, brake wipe, individual circuit pressure monitoring and such. It would require adapting the physical mount a bit and a little rewiring, but it should be able to sit in the same location as the factory Mk60, and the physical brake lines would still go to pretty much the same spots. There might be some WinKFP readable / flashable MK60 variants out there in some lower end early E6x/E9x generation cars - which could be useful if we were able to disassemble software as well as dump software... but I haven't looked too deep into that.

I have a hard time believing they'd invent an entirely new instruction set for something like this, but who knows.

[bigjae46]

I think things are basically at the point where it would probably be more fruitful trying to hack a newer DSC module (which have actual documented flash routines for WinKFP and such), but the other part of the issue is I have no idea what kind of code the CPU even executes to disassemble it. Doesn't seem to be ARM, PPC, tricore, 68k, or C16x like almost every other module used in BMWs.

Good point on it might be more worthwhile to use a newer DSC module. I think the MK60 conversions are going to be like the ZF LSDs. The ZF's were kind of a secret that you could find them in junkyards and craigslist for $300 all day and swap them into M3s. I bought mine for $250 or $300. I could and should have bought a bunch more. Until the secret got out, now a ZF unit costs $1000+. Only a matter of time until MK60 units get even pricier and good luck trying to find an 813 unit.

I have to wonder how much of a benefit does a race mapped MK60 over a standard MK60. I've been exploring doing a lot more braking after the initial turn in. I'm braking/turning at speeds over 100mph and the MK60 has yet to fail me. By braking, I mean I'm being fairly aggressive on the brakes. The car gets squirmy and I'm sure the aero helps but I've been impressed.

[heinzboehmer]

They all report different internal software versions.

I'm not sure newer modules are plug and play with the valve body, but in theory it wouldn't be difficult to just get a whole new module + valve body combo to sit in there. Once upon a time I was thinking of retrofitting the Z4M DSC module (MK60e5) (which I still have lying around in a bin somewhere) to get some of the newer features like hill hold, brake wipe, individual circuit pressure monitoring and such. It would require adapting the physical mount a bit and a little rewiring, but it should be able to sit in the same location as the factory Mk60, and the physical brake lines would still go to pretty much the same spots. There might be some WinKFP readable / flashable MK60 variants out there in some lower end early E6x/E9x generation cars - which could be useful if we were able to disassemble software as well as dump software... but I haven't looked too deep into that.

I have a hard time believing they'd invent an entirely new instruction set for something like this, but who knows.

Damn, I wish I had talked to you before doing everything with the M3 MK60. Just had a quick look at the differences between the two and everything is VERY similar.

• Brake lines all route to the same spots on the valve body, so no messing around required there.
• Master cylinder is the same, so no messing around required there.
• Valve body seems to have the mounting screw points in the same spots. Only modifications that would be needed to the M3 bracket are two holes for those protrusions on the underside of the Z4M valve body.
• Front wheel speed sensors are the same between the two cars, so no messing around required there.
• Rear wheel speed sensors are different part numbers, but they look extremely similar. Their appearance —combined with the fact that the front ones are the same— make me believe that they're electrically identical. Probably just a difference in length/where the clip in points are because of the different trailing arms between the two cars.
• DSC sensor is the same, so no messing around required there.
• Electrical connector looks the same and pinout is almost identical. Made a quick thing to see the differences (highlighted in bold): EDIT: I don't trust this diagram, see a few posts below.

• Not sure what "Activation, left bi-xenon headlight", "Activation, right bi-xenon headlight" and "Conditioned wheel speed, front left" are for. Also slightly confused as to why there are pins for the pressure sensors if the Z4M module does not use those.
• Besides those, the rest of the wiring would just involve moving pins around in the MK60 connector.

Will keep an eye out for Z4M modules/partouts and swap one in if I can get it for cheap. Only unknown is if it'll communicate and not throw any errors with the rest of the modules in the car. Are Z4M modules flashable via WinKFP?


Also, agreed that a new instruction set sounds unlikely, but that's kinda sorta what it sounded like. Honestly didn't ask too much about it.

[DoubleSidedTape]

The one I have sitting around from when I thought about doing this swap turns out to be an 813.3. What’s a reasonable amount to ask for one?

[heinzboehmer]

The one I have sitting around from when I thought about doing this swap turns out to be an 813.3. What’s a reasonable amount to ask for one?

I volunteer to take it off your hands since it looks like it's just taking up space for you.

[heinzboehmer]

• Electrical connector looks the same and pinout is almost identical. Made a quick thing to see the differences (highlighted in bold): EDIT: I don't trust this diagram, see a few posts below.

• Not sure what "Activation, left bi-xenon headlight", "Activation, right bi-xenon headlight" and "Conditioned wheel speed, front left" are for. Also slightly confused as to why there are pins for the pressure sensors if the Z4M module does not use those.
• Besides those, the rest of the wiring would just involve moving pins around in the MK60 connector.

Actually, I'm not sure I trust the pinout page on TIS. It shows the brake pressure sensors and it has different pin mapping to the wiring diagram. Example:


This mapping comes from the wiring diagram. I trust this one a lot more than the pinout:



More stuff is different, but still mostly just a matter of moving pins around in the connector. The processed front speeds are used in the Telephone/HiFi system (?), so probably no need to run those wires. Z4M pin 17 is the only thing that would need to be run. Might need to add an extra 5A fuse in the fuse box for that, but not a huge deal.

[bigjae46]

The one I have sitting around from when I thought about doing this swap turns out to be an 813.3. What’s a reasonable amount to ask for one?

I'd guess $500-$800?