MK20 -> MK60 Swap

[nextelbuddy]

Considering upgrading mk20 z3 S54 car for a friend To mk60

Since there was no mk60 MC and booster, wonder if we can get away with just reusing the MK20 pump since it still has the 2 pressure sensors.

Since mk20 is on drive side side already, I planned on just depinning the mk20 body side connector and pinning into the mk60 connector the matching wires and add missing wires etc.

[Altaran]

Considering upgrading mk20 z3 S54 car for a friend To mk60

Since there was no mk60 MC and booster, wonder if we can get away with just reusing the MK20 pump since it still has the 2 pressure sensors.

Since mk20 is on drive side side already, I planned on just depinning the mk20 body side connector and pinning into the mk60 connector the matching wires and add missing wires etc.

The booster and MC will work fine, that's not going to be your major issue. Most issue will be software integration. Since the Z3 never came equipped with it, you can't just code a newer ABS system, the option simply won't exist afaik. Engine ECU may be able to handle it, but the cluster won't, so speedo may not work properly and all abs and brake warning lights will light up.

Also there may be some real safety concerns, there is no factory MK60 abs programming to cover the Z3's chassis characteristics. Different weight, suspension, aerodynamic values etc.

The best bet would be to get a flasheable unit (CSL/zcp) and have someone with experience flash a proper software on it. And then work on the software integration with the other modules in the car.
Option two is a standalone unit, which will be cheaper than CSL, but you will loose DSC. Software integration will still be an issue.

Don't get me wrong, it's far from impossible. But you should know what you're getting yourself into.

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[Bry5on]

The booster and MC will work fine, that's not going to be your major issue. Most issue will be software integration. Since the Z3 never came equipped with it, you can't just code a newer ABS system, the option simply won't exist afaik. Engine ECU may be able to handle it, but the cluster won't, so speedo may not work properly and all abs and brake warning lights will light up.

Also there may be some real safety concerns, there is no factory MK60 abs programming to cover the Z3's chassis characteristics. Different weight, suspension, aerodynamic values etc.

The best bet would be to get a flasheable unit (CSL/zcp) and have someone with experience flash a proper software on it. And then work on the software integration with the other modules in the car.
Option two is a standalone unit, which will be cheaper than CSL, but you will loose DSC. Software integration will still be an issue.

Don't get me wrong, it's far from impossible. But you should know what you're getting yourself into.

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Code it for a late Z3 that had MK60 from the factory (01, 02 non-M)

[George Hill]

Considering upgrading mk20 z3 S54 car for a friend To mk60.

What do you hope to gain with the conversion? In other words, what dificiencies in the MK20 setup are you trying to address?

[Cronenberged]

Isn’t the MK60 really only an upgrade if your tracking the car? For daily driving the MK20 from my understanding is still very good.

[Altaran]

Isn't the MK60 really only an upgrade if your tracking the car? For daily driving the MK20 from my understanding is still very good.

Correct. Even tracking a car close to stock an MK20 will work fine. Did it for years.
It only becomes really worth it when your car is heavily modified and you tweak the abs settings (aka flash different software).

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[Altaran]

Code it for a late Z3 that had MK60 from the factory (01, 02 non-M)

Would be interesting to see from someone that owns a Z3M if the cluster is codeable for MK60 or if you have to swap in a non M cluster...

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[Obioban]

Correct. Even tracking a car close to stock an MK20 will work fine. Did it for years.
It only becomes really worth it when your car is heavily modified and you tweak the abs settings (aka flash different software).

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I don’t really agree with either side of that.

M track mode is perfect for back road bombing without disabling the safety net, and MK20 has a legit safety issue with ice mode on track creating a near no brake situation.

[Altaran]

I don't really agree with either side of that.

M track mode is perfect for back road bombing without disabling the safety net, and MK20 has a legit safety issue with ice mode on track creating a near no brake situation.

I've never felt the need to track the car with DSC on, so I've never really desired m track mode.
The E46 M3 is not overpowered by any means...

Doesn't mean that others may not feel different. Just my opinion...

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[heinzboehmer]

I've never felt the need to track the car with DSC on, so I've never really desired m track mode.

Yeah m track mode is fairly useless for me too. If I'm going fast enough in the canyons to have DSC intervene, then I am probably going way too fast for public roads...

However, I would argue that the 4 vs 3 channel ABS is enough reason to justify this swap. MK60 is way, way more stable when ABS intervenes, which is a legitimate safety upgrade in all driving scenarios.

[Altaran]

Yeah m track mode is fairly useless for me too. If I'm going fast enough in the canyons to have DSC intervene, then I am probably going way too fast for public roads...

However, I would argue that the 4 vs 3 channel ABS is enough reason to justify this swap. MK60 is way, way more stable when ABS intervenes, which is a legitimate safety upgrade in all driving scenarios.

Agreed on the point of intervention, it's also my experience from swapping that the MK60 intervention feels a lot softer and unsettles the car not as much.

Additionally the shorter brake lines from MC to ABS give a better response.

Don't know if I would justify this for the swap effort though.

Funny enough my race MK60 has a pin that when grounded makes the intervention harsher. The guy told me all the race teams want this, as the drivers want to know exactly when abs starts intervening so they can adjust their braking point to prevent abs intervention.
I have not tried it yet though. Probably nothing I would want to use on roads. 😂

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[Nate047]

Every time this thread gets bumped I look at this box in my garage. Taunting me. Mocking me.

Can we get a recap on what the easiest and most bare bones way to do this retrofit is?

And maybe a little pep talk, tell me it's not so bad of a job.

[Altaran]

Every time this thread gets bumped I look at this box in my garage. Taunting me. Mocking me.

Can we get a recap on what the easiest and most bare bones way to do this retrofit is?

And maybe a little pep talk, tell me it's not so bad of a job.

I still advocate what is described as option 3. It's actually not difficult, just time consuming.

For the pep talk: It's winter now, so not really driving time, best time to hit this.

If it makes you feel better, you got my number. Feel free to call if you feel lost. 😉

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[nextelbuddy]

What do you hope to gain with the conversion? In other words, what dificiencies in the MK20 setup are you trying to address?

Couple reasons,


1, mk20 intervenes way too early and too much for anything remotely close to spirited driving. The turn in steering with a little acceleration mk20 intervenes top much.... so with any close to spirited driving you pretty much have to just disable DSC all the time so it's annoying to have to just press that button when you get in the car.

2. Better technology in the mk60

3. S54 mk60 clownshoe would be neat

My buddy is still weighing his options. We're looking at the pros and cons of everything looking at the difficulty level versus what we're doing now and considering his current z3m coupe is an s52 car with ASC... If we're already trying to retrofit mk20 into it, why not go the extra mile for mk60?


- Looks like we can keep the mk20 booster and MC with the dual pressure sensors
- snag a brake fluid reservoir from an mk60 Z3 car with the integrated brake level sensor (maybe just get the mk60 booster and master cylinder from the same Z3, trying to stY cost effective)
- maybe even grab the brake lines from a mk60 z3 car if we can find one in the junkyard
- source an mk60 z3 module just to have the z3 chassis specific coding that the E46 modules don't have

Since he will be using an S54 z3 cluster, then mk60 Should have no problems talking to the cluster via can bus since the MK20 did the same thing.

Coding the module is no problem with NCS expert. Lots of ways to do that with modified parameters

[George Hill]

However, I would argue that the 4 vs 3 channel ABS is enough reason to justify this swap.

MK20 is 4 channel as well.

1, mk20 intervenes way too early and too much for anything remotely close to spirited driving. The turn in steering with a little acceleration mk20 intervenes top much.... so with any close to spirited driving you pretty much have to just disable DSC all the time so it's annoying to have to just press that button when you get in the car.

Having owned an S54 roadster and an MK20 car (that became S54) swapped I wonder how much of that is Z3M specific? The Z3M was always on the verge of out of control at the limit I felt like as the short wheel base really doesn't lend itself to many "mistakes."

I tracked my MK20 car when it was M52tu/6MT and it wasn't ever an issue for me, and once S54 swapped with the M3 MK20 I never noticed an issue on the street.

Its to bad there isn't an easy way to test the Z3M back to back with the MK20 vs MK60.