MK20 -> MK60 Swap

[mrgizmo04]

Let's see if this Tapatalk thing is fixed.

Most drivers, unless very experienced and skilled, don't/won't apply enough brake pressure, therefore getting into ABS will provide better stopping. Sensing slip in a single tire and adjusting while the other 3 are slowing you down is not something you can outdo. One thing to get used to is the pulsating feeling against your foot, but that is only good on initial application as on entry and turn in, trail braking requires less pressure.

Normally you'd hit ABS when your track tires are not warmed up, assuming you run grabby pads. If you run grabby pads and street tires, you'll be in ABS most/all of the time, tires will shoot up in pressure from all the work and temp you put into them. If you can't hit ABS standing on the pedal, your tires are grippy and pads not so much, better be cooling those pads .

ABS pulsating will wear pads/rotors more, similar for stability control, as it's hammering full force.

I've had ice mode with MK60. I also know other drivers with MK60 who have experienced ice mode. Some data points are on slicks with aero, some on street tires at autox, some on 200tw on track with no aero. Qualitative commonality (which is very unscientific) is stiff suspension and running into dips on the road, then coming out of the dip the slight unloading seems to throw it for a loop...sometimes.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[George Hill]

Re: threshold braking... I don't know if I can get behind everything in the video, but doesn't seem unreasonable either.

https://youtu.be/G-GEUkiMuLk

I've got an E36 client and we are looking into swapping to a MK60 or MK60E1 variant. I talked to Doug Wardell of RHT (https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/) and he said the following:
"The E units are really only good in race firmware versions; the MK60Ex units people are putting in using street car maps are not ideal due mostly to the brake bias in the cars they are from and how much it differs from earlier E30, 36, and 46 platforms..... The race firmware takes software developed by Contintenal Motorsport for racing applications and places it on the ABS unit. There's a map that is then built using chassis parameters specific to the car. Same process as how Bosch Motorsport units work only the MK60 based systems are a bench flash."

And Competition MK60 vs E1
"If we were to source an 813.3 MK60 and flash it with the race programming, how would you compare it to the E1 in race flash? Is the E1 still a better option? They are very similar; I'm not sure you'd be able to detect a difference in performance. The 813 Race units run at 1mbps CANBUS speed which can be an advantage if you only have 1 canbus network and the rest of your devices are 1mbps however that doesn't sound like the case here. The map prices are the same, the only difference is you're saving the cost of the ABS unit.

[terra]

For situations where I wanted to have a race unit and the "flash" costs thousands of dollars and result in the loss of DSC regardless... I'd be tempted to pony up a little more and get the real deal continental RSX or Bosch M4/M5 modules and have a much greater degree of control.

For street situations, basically MK60 is our best available "upgrade". With Z4 variant of the MK60e5 perhaps offering a little more. In that particular case I don't think there would be an issue with brake bias and whatnot, given the Z4M and ZCP/CSL have literally the same brakes

[Nate047]

Okay awesome, that link is helpful and he talks about the exact point I was asking about. If you’re not in ABS, you’re leaving something on the table. That makes sense, no arguing that. I suppose I’m just grasping at reasons to not do this job because it seems like a fairly big pain in the ass and/or expense to shop out.

[bigjae46]

Didn't mean it to sound like that's something you NEVER want to do in a car, but you should probably not do it the way I was doing it. When I tried this I was basically trying to be as stupid as possible. i.e. Sharp and not smooth turn of the wheel and hard slam on the brakes. Was just trying to upset the car as much as possible to see how the system responded. To my surprise it did pretty well.

I'm sure you didn't have to try hard to be stupid...BOOM! haha...too easy.

Trail braking aside, most common situation is when the braking zone isn't straight or there is a kink right before a braking zone. I used to try and position the car to make it as straight as possible through the braking zone so I would lift or not come into the turn on full throttle. The reasoning is I can get on the brakes more because the car is straight and has more grip for stopping. Now, I am willing threshold brake through a kink so I can hold the throttle off a straight longer. You have to have some touch on the brakes, can't just jam on the pedal. BUT...you can apply quite a bit of brake force and ABS will help.

Just like you add throttle exiting, you build up braking as you enter. It's not the normal full brake and then trail off.

See video...skip to 6:18. Turning and braking. Now its just a matter of balls...I can go a couple more car lengths into the turn before braking. Easy .5 second there.

[ra2fanatic]

damn, want to rewire mine now?

[heinzboehmer]

I do wonder if the real CSL/ZCP module's M-track is any different in this regard. I should have done some scientific testing when I made the switch myself.

For that matter, I wonder about the ABS difference too with the real CSL/ZCP module. I have always read claims that it's different, but I just don't have enough seat time at the limits to say if there's a real difference.

With the ABS difference being that pronounced between the MK20 and MK60, that makes me even more curious about the MK60e5, MK100, and the actual race modules. Especially since one of the innovations with the MK60e5 is supposed to be "analog" control of the abs solenoids, which coupled with the independent pressure sensors makes me think the ABS behavior during turns could be even better

For street situations, basically MK60 is our best available "upgrade". With Z4 variant of the MK60e5 perhaps offering a little more. In that particular case I don't think there would be an issue with brake bias and whatnot, given the Z4M and ZCP/CSL have literally the same brakes

Yeah, like you said, I think the Z4M module is probably the ultimate upgrade. Those independent pressure sensors really tempt me.

I'll definitely swap one in if I ever find one at a junkyard or part out. Not dying to spend $600+ for the units I've seen on eBay.

I suppose I’m just grasping at reasons to not do this job because it seems like a fairly big pain in the ass and/or expense to shop out.

Share some pics if you do end up doing it!

I'm sure you didn't have to try hard to be stupid...BOOM! haha...too easy.

Trail braking aside, most common situation is when the braking zone isn't straight or there is a kink right before a braking zone. I used to try and position the car to make it as straight as possible through the braking zone so I would lift or not come into the turn on full throttle. The reasoning is I can get on the brakes more because the car is straight and has more grip for stopping. Now, I am willing threshold brake through a kink so I can hold the throttle off a straight longer. You have to have some touch on the brakes, can't just jam on the pedal. BUT...you can apply quite a bit of brake force and ABS will help.

Just like you add throttle exiting, you build up braking as you enter. It's not the normal full brake and then trail off.

See video...skip to 6:18. Turning and braking. Now its just a matter of balls...I can go a couple more car lengths into the turn before braking. Easy .5 second there.

Lol yeah I made that too easy for you.

And cool, I've been reading stuff and watching videos about it and it makes sense. Thanks for your video too, it's useful to see it in action. Now just need to get out on the track and practice.

damn, want to rewire mine now?

I think I might pass, once was enough!

But if you (or anyone) does end up going through with this and builds a similar adapter harness, let me know. I still have extra PCBs that I can throw into an envelope and send out. Can also throw the gerbers up somewhere if anyone wants them.

[Thoglan]

I keep telling myself that I am not doing this and it's not worth it for how I use my car but I keep finding myself going through every detail in the thread because I think subconsciously I've decided I am going to do it. Especially since finding out it might be possible to do with a non-m MK60...

I wonder how different it will be given my car is RHD? I think more or less the process will be the same, since the ABS unit itself still has to swap sides, but the brake booster and reservoir don't move with RHD cars. No doubt I'll come crying to you in DMs if I ever try this and get stuck lol

[heinzboehmer]

I keep telling myself that I am not doing this and it's not worth it for how I use my car but I keep finding myself going through every detail in the thread because I think subconsciously I've decided I am going to do it. Especially since finding out it might be possible to do with a non-m MK60...

I wonder how different it will be given my car is RHD? I think more or less the process will be the same, since the ABS unit itself still has to swap sides, but the brake booster and reservoir don't move with RHD cars. No doubt I'll come crying to you in DMs if I ever try this and get stuck lol

Hmm, did some super quick youtube research and it seems like everything is on opposite sides for RHD cars. Electronics get moved to the other side of the engine, so you would still need to do some messing around with the harness. However, it's possible that the MK20 harness starts in the spot as in LHD cars (engine exhaust side) and then just goes behind the dash and out into the engine bay (engine intake side). If so, you could cut off the excess harness and repin the wires into the MK60 connector. Should be easy to check if this is the case by pulling the glove box and peeling the carpet that's against the firewall back to see if the harness is there and goes behind the dash or if it comes from a completely different spot.

MK20 has the booster, master cylinder and accumulator on the engine exhaust side and the valve core and electronics on the engine intake side (https://youtu.be/m5nBrBjFC1o?t=329). There appear to be three lines running behind the engine (but it's kinda hard to see so you should confirm this), two from the two circuits of the master cylinder to the valve core and one from the valve core to the FR caliper.

MK60 has the booster, master cylinder, valve core and electronics (no accumulator for MK60) all on the engine exhaust side (https://youtu.be/pTAq23HtkpI?t=373). There are also three lines running behind the engine, but the uses are different. Two are from the valve core to the rear calipers and one is from the valve core to FL caliper.

This is actually great news if you want to cheat! You can probably get away with removing all the MK20 stuff, except for the three lines behind the engine and then installing all the MK60 stuff. From there, you can cut and splice the existing three lines to repurpose them for the MK60. Will probably be easiest to bend a new line for the FR caliper. Essentially, the cheat is to keep the sections of line behind the engine and cut them around the strut tower areas. Then make new lines to splice in and connect where they need to go (FL caliper and junctions to rear lines by gearbox). Not sure if it's worth doing this vs just bending three entire new lines, but it's an option.

I guess a very similar thing is applicable to LHD cars. Keep one of the lines that runs behind the engine and splice into it for the line from valve core to FL caliper. The amount of work this will save vs bending an entire new line is probably marginal, so I would personally just replace the entire thing on LHD cars.

[heinzboehmer]

This also reminded me that I never posted an update about how I ran my harness through the interior. Don't want to add this to the original posts because it ended up being a bit less elegant than I had planned. The proper way to do it involved removing the dash and HVAC, so I decided against doing it that way. I did post a bunch of pics and descriptions in my journal on how I did it, so I'll just link that instead: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...386#post193386

[zzyzx85]

Great write-up!

Thankfully my '03 already has MK60 but this thread led me to discovering M-mode in my car. I made good use of it last weekend at the track.

[George Hill]

I'm now even more impressed that you ran that giant connector through the dash, lol.

[heinzboehmer]

Great write-up!

Thankfully my '03 already has MK60 but this thread led me to discovering M-mode in my car. I made good use of it last weekend at the track.

Thanks! Glad it was useful.

I'm now even more impressed that you ran that giant connector through the dash, lol.

Lol it was not an easy thing to do. Would have been much easier and much faster to remove the dash and do it properly, but once again, stupid tiny garage.

Also, it would have been significantly easier if I had made the harness ~0.5m longer. The connector was thin enough that I could fit it between the part of the dash next to the shifter and the trans tunnel if I pulled on the dash slightly. So basically would have just needed to get it to the pedal area, then in and out of the shifter area and then to the glove box area. After that, just stuff the wire bundle under the edges of the dash and done. But I totally misjudged the geometry of the HVAC unit on the passenger side, which caused me to make the harness too short (I thought I was going to be able to pass the harness behind the HVAC unit) and forced me to feed the connector in that ridiculous way.

[George Hill]

Lol it was not an easy thing to do. Would have been much easier and much faster to remove the dash and do it properly, but once again, stupid tiny garage.

I should have said ....impressed that you were ABLE to, lol

[heinzboehmer]

Traction Control:

This is the bit that I felt was most similar between the two modules. Traction control seems to come on at about the same threshold and allows about the same amount of spin. The one difference is that the MK60 intervention seems a bit more gradual. On the MK20, you can feel the entirely drivetrain clunking and jerking around whenever power is cut. This feeling is still there with the MK60, but it's less aggressive. Hard gear shifts with cold tires still result in the same level of annoyance when you forget to turn DSC off, though.

Actually, I think I may have to take some of this back. Still matches my experience in dry weather, but it's been rainy over here recently and the systems seem to behave differently on low grip surfaces.

I have to go off of memory for the comparison, so comparing against a fairly inaccurate source, but I think I'm pretty sure the MK60 allows a good amount more slip than the MK20 on slippery surfaces. If I floor it in first at ~3k rpm (in the wet), the tires will immediately lose traction, but the system won't intervene until 5-5.5k rpm. With the MK20, the intervention was almost instant and much more violent.

When I used to drive in the snow (MK20), I had to turn traction control off, otherwise the car was undrivable. The system would not allow any amount of slip and I was unable to get moving in most situations (car was excellent with DSC off in the snow, btw). I think the MK60 would be much more usable there.

Regardless, this is a very small difference that will probably not be tangible in most everyday driving situations, but thought I'd point it out since I noticed it.

Also, finally going back to Thunderhill in early April, so should be able to run a better experiment with the same setup as when I had the MK60 (except for some weight from seats).