Everything about Fat Cat Motorsport Suspension

[cobra]

With 700lb rear spring rates that's 2.13Hz. That's pretty high for a street car, no wonder it felt so stiff.

[K-Dawg]

He didn't say it was stiff, and those rates aren't excessively high.

Something doesn't jive. Are you sure of the actual rates of the new 700/675 lb/in springs? Did you discuss the issue with Shaikh? What you're describing sounds like the rear spring rates are too soft, but I'd think that would be evident when you install them.

Maybe try sticking the 700/675s back in and see if the issue returns.

[Dxj]

I figured I add a little here as I got FCM suspension installed earlier this year and wanted to share with the community.
I came from PSS10 suspension which felt like a good all around suspension but soft for the track and stiff for the street (my car is not a dedicated track car). It was ok but felt like there was too much body roll and weight transfer. I went to FCM with 392 F and 750 rear spring rates. Mind you, at the same time, I did full CMP subframe reinforcement with solid subframe bushings and new oem diff bushings.
overall, the car feels softer and more enjoyable on the street (assuming lower gas pressure delivered that) …bumps are better absorbed, with less drama. On the track, it is stiffer when it comes to roll and weight transfer (there is still some body roll…not too stiff) but I still feel the ability to absorb bumps as opposed to bouncing off of them. Lap times did get better but I’ve been also working on evaluating data and making sure I make improvements when behind the wheel so I can’t say it’s all suspension.

[bigjae46]

Can FCM optimize TC Kline doubles?

I'm happy with mine on 450lb/700lb springs. I need to have mine rebuilt soon...they are getting bouncy. It takes a good minute for the car to settle after some bigger bumps. My shocks are 9 years old and have about 60k miles on them.

[K-Dawg]

FCM only services Bilstein-based nonadjustable dampers. Flat ride theory works with any dampers.

Any more feedback on FCM's services?

I saw on Obioban 's journal that a 60/40 bump/droop ratio puts his car at 14" front ride height. Any bottoming-out at this height?

What is the stroke of the H&R front damper?

Does FCM typically modify the internal bump stop?

While I'm asking questions, what is the stroke of the Bilstein B6 front strut?

[cobra]

I would want adjustability on any aftermarket shock I installed on my car. Even with a really consistent builder and tuner you will want to be able to tweak it slightly once installed based on driver preferences or driving conditions. Seems like doing the non-adjustable route just locks you into repeated services and hassle if you aren't totally happy?

That said the B6 looks like a nice shock. Totally non adjustable so your bump/droop is what it is.

[Obioban]

FCM only services Bilstein-based nonadjustable dampers. Flat ride theory works with any dampers.

Any more feedback on FCM's services?

I saw on Obioban 's journal that a 60/40 bump/droop ratio puts his car at 14" front ride height. Any bottoming-out at this height?

What is the stroke of the H&R front damper?

Does FCM typically modify the internal bump stop?

While I'm asking questions, what is the stroke of the Bilstein B6 front strut?

IIRC the H&R front damper is either 102mm or 112mm of travel.

Fatcats will do an adjustable shock if you want it-- they just prefer the non adjustable dampers because they're inherently more reliable (simpler).

I have had no bottoming out issues, but obviously some of that will also depend on spring rates, car weight, etc.

FCM does modify the internal bump stops.

[Obioban]

I would want adjustability on any aftermarket shock I installed on my car. Even with a really consistent builder and tuner you will want to be able to tweak it slightly once installed based on driver preferences or driving conditions. Seems like doing the non-adjustable route just locks you into repeated services and hassle if you aren't totally happy?

That said the B6 looks like a nice shock. Totally non adjustable so your bump/droop is what it is.

After 15 years of various adjustable shocks (up to quad adjustable remote reservoir JRZs)... it's honestly been pretty great to not be thinking about adjusting the shocks. The shocks are valved for my spring rates and corner weights, so likely I'd just make it worse anyway.

I've also idiot proofed my tire pressures, with the Michelin track connect setup... so all I really have to think about is camber (which I set via pyrometer).

It's relaxing

[cobra]

After 15 years of various adjustable shocks (up to quad adjustable remote reservoir JRZs)... it's honestly been pretty great to not be thinking about adjusting the shocks. The shocks are valved for my spring rates and corner weights, so likely I'd just make it worse anyway.

I've also idiot proofed my tire pressures, with the Michelin track connect setup... so all I really have to think about is camber (which I set via pyrometer).

It's relaxing

You know what, now that you mention it I can definitely understand that. I own a BMW S1000XR with more-or-less non adjustable suspension (electronic with 2 modes, and adjustable rear preload only), and it really does let your mind focus on other things since adjusting the suspension isn't even an option. On past motorcycles I was constantly thinking about how it needed a click here and there. And now I just learned to ride it as-is and it's fine for most things.

At the same time, I REALLY wish I could increase the rebound damping in the front. Just a few % stiffer, but since it's a sealed cartridge unit it's not possible.

[K-Dawg]

IIRC the H&R front damper is either 102mm or 112mm of travel.

Fatcats will do an adjustable shock if you want it-- they just prefer the non adjustable dampers because they're inherently more reliable (simpler).

I have had no bottoming out issues, but obviously some of that will also depend on spring rates, car weight, etc.

FCM does modify the internal bump stops.

Thanks.

Your 60/40 split is based on metal to metal travel? So some of your bump travel would be consumed by the bump stop going solid?

My car is full weight, and I'd like to run softer springs (250/600 perhaps), and preferably, OEM strut mounts. Trying to figure out if that's going to be feasible.

[Obioban]

Thanks.

Your 60/40 split is based on metal to metal travel? So some of your bump travel would be consumed by the bump stop going solid?

My car is full weight, and I'd like to run softer springs (250/600 perhaps), and preferably, OEM strut mounts. Trying to figure out if that's going to be feasible.

Yeah, metal to metal. The bump stop isn't solid, just trimmed-- and actually just the firm part trimmed.

Other than jumping the car/similar, the way the car is set up it shouldn't engage the bump stop-- it's just there as a safety, not a spring element.

At 250/600/stock weight, you're going to want to be near stock ride height and I'd suspect would want to use a Koni, for the longer travel.

[K-Dawg]

Yeah, metal to metal. The bump stop isn't solid, just trimmed-- and actually just the firm part trimmed.

Right. I meant that at some point the stop is solid and is no longer a spring, and takes up some of the available bump travel.

Other than jumping the car/similar, the way the car is set up it shouldn't engage the bump stop-- it's just there as a safety, not a spring element.

At 250/600/stock weight, you're going to want to be near stock ride height and I'd suspect would want to use a Koni, for the longer travel.

Yeah, I'm going to have to sharpen my pencil a little bit. But it seems like it would be fine if I can get the appropriate length spring. Already have TCK DA, want to try something from Bilstein/FCM on this car. Near stock height is fine with me.

[maupineda]

I have those rates, and my car was set up at OE ride height (607mm front / 594mm rear), my dampers are a combination of H&R and Bilsteins shocks (H&R Coilover front strut, and B8 HD shock from the Non-M Z4 at the rear).

At those rates, the car is still very firmly supported (I would not call them soft at all), it really takes some aggressive dips to make the car even try to bottom out (I have not managed to do that yet - but I am not trying as I don't abuse the car), also keep in mind the Z4MC has the 27mm front sway bar, and I am installing the CSL item to reduce roll up front and balance the FRC.

A few reference notes (note this is for the Z4M)...

• The H&R coils have 130mm of total travel until the inverted strut insert bottoms out inside the strut housing
• The internal bump stop is 70mm long
• I would assume a solid block height of ~30mm when the stop is fully compressed

Based on the above, and considering I trimmed 25mm off the stop, my car is set so that when supported the damper travels ~55mm, with a remaining ~60mm of bump travel leaving another 15mm in there for a fully compressed bump stop. With this, the car still has 30mm of bump travel before engaging the BS, and another 30mm of the BS acting as a secondary spring.

I trimmed the stiffer section.

Some images as that are what is always lacking, isn't it?

Full travel without the BS, the insert would bottom out inside the strut housing


OE H&R Bumpstop



Trimmed BS



So, I think I could still lower the car by 10mm and still have a good setup, albeit I would give out some travel, or I can use aftermarket plates to not affect travel at all, but since my last interest is in lowering the car, I just don't care. I set her up with functionality and fast road performance in mind.

But there you go, if you take some time and make the math you can set up the car in a way that will serve the purpose you have in mind better than just slapping new parts on.

P.S. Bilstein HD also use 70mm BS, so they can be trimmed to avoid riding on them all the time (even at stock ride height)

[K-Dawg]

maupineda are you using E46 M3 or Z4 H&R coilover shocks, or are they the same?

[maupineda]

maupineda are you using E46 M3 or Z4 H&R coilover shocks, or are they the same?

the strut housing is different, and I don't know if the overall length and travel are the same but I would be surprised if they are not very close. the suspension geometry is very alike except for more caster on the E46 M3.