Help diagnosing high water temps at track - Resolved? (not really!)

[heinzboehmer]

EDIT: Also forgot to mention car has a TTFS Custom Dyno tune by the elusive Frank Smith himself lol. I initially thought cooling issues arose after I got it. But nope was happening on previous tune as well. Though a retune by Hassan at HTE is also on my considerations.

Have heard bad things about TTFS tunes on track cars. Have also looked at one in tunerpro and some of the changes are pretty sketch. Going back to stock is free and might actually help your cooling issues.

[BigRussia]

Just for point of reference. From my latest outing at Summit Point. High humidity, ambient temp of low 90s. The hottest I was hitting max 210F Coolant temp and 268F oil temp. This is with CSF Radiator, CSF oil cooler, Turner wp and ps underdrive. No puller fan or fan shroud. Stock pusher fan is still installed.

Previous owner fitted the CSF stuff. I am tempted to try and switch back to stock.

That doesn't seem too bad to me in those conditions. Ha, if my car would stay under 210F in those same conditions, while not ideal, id be happy But mine will keep on climbing to 215+F if i keep pushing and dont back off for cooling lap.

You might want to look into going back to stock pulleys as well, my car initially came with the AA power pulleys and that was one of the first things I did to see if it'll improve my cooling issue (might be documented earlier in this long thread ha), as those 'power' pulleys end up just spinning your accessories (such as the WP) slower and maybe cant keep up with coolant flow at higher engine speeds (where there is also more heat).

Have heard bad things about TTFS tunes on track cars. Have also looked at one in tunerpro and some of the changes are pretty sketch. Going back to stock is free and might actually help your cooling issues.

Yeah this was actually suggested to me when I initially created this thread and started trying to get to the bottom of this cooling issue. Still havent ruled it out that it could be contributing to the problem. Unfortunately I dont have a stock tune to go down to, car came with an ancient AA one. Potentially causing cooling issue aside, the TTFS tune is super rock solid and car and engine never have a single hiccup, misfire, any issues at all and runs very strong and healthy!

If it seems worthwhile for anyone wanting to see, I can pull the ignition timings for each cylinder using Martyn's ECUWORX tool and post them if anyone wants to to take a gander and analyze lol.

[heinzboehmer]

Yeah this was actually suggested to me when I initially created this thread and started trying to get to the bottom of this cooling issue. Still havent ruled it out that it could be contributing to the problem. Unfortunately I dont have a stock tune to go down to, car came with an ancient AA one. Potentially causing cooling issue aside, the TTFS tune is super rock solid and car and engine never have a single hiccup, misfire, any issues at all and runs very strong and healthy!

If it seems worthwhile for anyone wanting to see, I can pull the ignition timings for each cylinder using Martyn's ECUWORX tool and post them if anyone wants to to take a gander and analyze lol.

You can go back to stock with winkfp: http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12750

[eacmen]

Since we are discussing tunes affect on engine cooling. Anyone have negative experience with Hassan's non-dyno MAF tunes? Are there ECU tables that pull timing based on coolant temp that I should be looking at?

[bigjae46]

I got the biggest improvement in temperature from removing the fan. When you're at speed the fan actually reduces air flow through the radiator. I saw a solid 10-15 degree drop.

I just removed the AC condenser, a SPAL puller fan and used 100% distilled water and he could maintain 200 degrees on a 95+ degree day in Houston at the track. Prior to that he was getting similar temps - 215 and then would have to back off.

[BigRussia]

I got the biggest improvement in temperature from removing the fan. When you're at speed the fan actually reduces air flow through the radiator. I saw a solid 10-15 degree drop.

I just removed the AC condenser, a SPAL puller fan and used 100% distilled water and he could maintain 200 degrees on a 95+ degree day in Houston at the track. Prior to that he was getting similar temps - 215 and then would have to back off.

Which fan did you remove? The front pusher aux or the main puller one? Assuming you meant the front aux, yeah it def takes up alot of real estate up front and blocks a decent surface area, but living in constantly hot South Florida I consider A/C as a life support system and thus its a non starter to remove my A/C condenser and the front pusher fan

Wish I could and even though I usually drive windows down, sometimes its just so nice to have cool A/C when stuck in Miami traffic (which is also a constant here). But yeah I see alot of the Cali track guys running with both no condenser and no aux fan up front, but alas can only wish we had their weather ha!

[BigRussia]

So I finished taking apart the front end and inspecting everything this past weekend. Confirmed the recently new oe radiator does indeed have the side bracket foam gaskets installed so that's good and sealed as it should. The Top Cover plastic piece (#1) that goes over the aux fan under the radiator support was missing the rubber seals at both ends (circled in pic), so bought a new OE replacement. I also mended the broken kidney part of the Front Air Duct that sits against that missing top cover rubber seal with some plastic bonder (red arrow), hoping with a new top cover having seals and this fix itll help a tiny bit with airflow, but probably moot and insignificant if any lol.



The Aux Fan's vent flaps all looked fine and opened easily all the way, except for one. It was the one in front of the fan motor and basically blocked by it, cant open all the way due to hitting the motor so I removed the flap to help improve the flow there. Again probably insignificant in the overall and moot, especially since the fan motor is blocking the cooler surface behind it, but one can hope it'll help a little.

(Flap at max open, hitting fan motor)

Curious, has anyone removed all the fan flaps? Was wondering if just removing them all will help, not really sure what their function is for being closed at low speeds. Is it to help with initial warming up and getting the car up to operating temps quicker and more efficiently?

Lastly I debated choosing to buy a brand new oe Front Air Duct (#2), or roll the dice and be a guinea pig for the BuildJournal Radiator Duct. I went with the BJ unit even though was more $ than a new oe piece but figured hey maybe it will be an upgrade and worse case maybe improve oil temp cooling even if doesn't water temps.

So in summary so far here's what I'm doing hoping will improve the track cooling, while still holding on for dear life to my condenser (remember it is fairly new and was replaced during the cooling refresh) and my front aux pusher fan:
- BuildJournal Radiator Duct
- New plastic Top Cover #1
- Mended Front Air Duct top piece (bottom half will be cut off completely as part of BJ Rad duct install)
- Removed aux fan flap that didnt open all the way due to hitting fan motor

Hoping all the parts arrive in time for next weekend after this coming one. Will update once I’ve completed the job, thanks again to everyone for reading along!

Extra read if you still reading: Man it was rough seeing the sloppy repair work whatever shop did on this car way back when was once I started peeling back things. Also I dont know if it was a previous owner or the body shop but i found drilled holes all over the front end, like couple on each bumper carrier bracket, and even headlight mounting area. For example pictured here on the center radiator support there were these 4 small drill holes, any clue as to what it could've been intended for?

[bigjae46]

Which fan did you remove? The front pusher aux or the main puller one? Assuming you meant the front aux, yeah it def takes up alot of real estate up front and blocks a decent surface area, but living in constantly hot South Florida I consider A/C as a life support system and thus its a non starter to remove my A/C condenser and the front pusher fan

Wish I could and even though I usually drive windows down, sometimes its just so nice to have cool A/C when stuck in Miami traffic (which is also a constant here). But yeah I see alot of the Cali track guys running with both no condenser and no aux fan up front, but alas can only wish we had their weather ha!

I removed both fans and the AC condenser. If you're not willing to lose the AC then you will be severely limited with options. Not sure if you have done so already, a new AC condenser will help.

[Obioban]

So I finished taking apart the front end and inspecting everything this past weekend. Confirmed the recently new oe radiator does indeed have the side bracket foam gaskets installed so that's good and sealed as it should. The Top Cover plastic piece (#1) that goes over the aux fan under the radiator support was missing the rubber seals at both ends (circled in pic), so bought a new OE replacement. I also mended the broken kidney part of the Front Air Duct that sits against that missing top cover rubber seal with some plastic bonder (red arrow), hoping with a new top cover having seals and this fix itll help a tiny bit with airflow, but probably moot and insignificant if any lol.



The Aux Fan's vent flaps all looked fine and opened easily all the way, except for one. It was the one in front of the fan motor and basically blocked by it, cant open all the way due to hitting the motor so I removed the flap to help improve the flow there. Again probably insignificant in the overall and moot, especially since the fan motor is blocking the cooler surface behind it, but one can hope it'll help a little.

(Flap at max open, hitting fan motor)

Curious, has anyone removed all the fan flaps? Was wondering if just removing them all will help, not really sure what their function is for being closed at low speeds. Is it to help with initial warming up and getting the car up to operating temps quicker and more efficiently?

Lastly I debated choosing to buy a brand new oe Front Air Duct (#2), or roll the dice and be a guinea pig for the BuildJournal Radiator Duct. I went with the BJ unit even though was more $ than a new oe piece but figured hey maybe it will be an upgrade and worse case maybe improve oil temp cooling even if doesn't water temps.

So in summary so far here's what I'm doing hoping will improve the track cooling, while still holding on for dear life to my condenser (remember it is fairly new and was replaced during the cooling refresh) and my front aux pusher fan:
- BuildJournal Radiator Duct
- New plastic Top Cover #1
- Mended Front Air Duct top piece (bottom half will be cut off completely as part of BJ Rad duct install)
- Removed aux fan flap that didnt open all the way due to hitting fan motor

Hoping all the parts arrive in time for next weekend after this coming one. Will update once I’ve completed the job, thanks again to everyone for reading along!

Extra read if you still reading: Man it was rough seeing the sloppy repair work whatever shop did on this car way back when was once I started peeling back things. Also I dont know if it was a previous owner or the body shop but i found drilled holes all over the front end, like couple on each bumper carrier bracket, and even headlight mounting area. For example pictured here on the center radiator support there were these 4 small drill holes, any clue as to what it could've been intended for?

I believe the function of the flaps is to let the fan work more efficiently when stopped-- forces the air through the rad/condenser instead of where the flaps are. But, at speed, functions as if you don't have a shroud where the flaps are.

[GolanM3]

So, quick update on this on the Mishimoto, it's certainly has improved the situation and perhaps, this is a as good as it gets.
Yesterday I attended a track night with the SCCA club. Temps were around 85f for the 3 sessions. During the first 2 20min. sessions no issues reported, the temp gauge was dead center.

By the 3rd session, everything was just fine, until I decided to chase a fully track prepped BMW 1M around the track, he was slightly faster and I was hanging close behind him, after about 2-3 laps of pushing hard with no traffic, I noticed the temp gauge starting to move to the right just slightly, I immediately lifted, and within seconds, it went back to center.

Trying to analyze this, I wonder if tailing the 1M closely, the radiator didn't get enough air flow through. Also, in a typical track day for me, even in the summer during the first 2 -3 sessions temps here in Oregon are in the 70s, and later in the afternoon we get peak temps, so I may run a session or 2 at high temps.

Overall, as I mentioned in earlier post, it's obvious to me the Mishimoto is far better than the used OEM radiator I had on, and the new CSF I tried prior, in terms of holding temps and how quickly it cools down.
I do not have any plans to further modify the cooling system at this time, but will continue to monitor over the next few track events.

Cheers.

[eacmen]

Chasing cars closely on track is a recipe for overheating. You don't really need to lift, just go off line for a lap so you're not in their wake.

[GolanM3]

Chasing cars closely on track is a recipe for overheating. You don't really need to lift, just go off line for a lap so you're not in their wake.

Agree 100%, I hope to get a better assessment over the next few track events