Failed vanos test post Beisan

[sapote]

“I don't like the fact I biased the crank to achieve correct timing. In fact I followed your instructions the first go around and unfortunately it was the same result as last time except both cams were retarded instead of only EX cam.”

It doesn’t matter how you did; the good result is what matter.

I wonder if the thicker spring reduces chances of rattle due to harmonics?

With everything installed, there’s a tiny gap between the hub rear end to the cam sleeve, this allows the cam to advance/retard relative to the hub. During advancing the cam, the hub compresses the cup spring further until it and the funny thrust washer bottomed on the cam sleeve or when cam turned. During retarding, the hub does not compress the cup spring. This is why it takes more time to advance than retard.

[maupineda]

it is the same on my spare VANOS, the disc takes some persuasion to slide in and out, needs to be done straight forward or it sort of gets stuck. we will see with your pressure and VANOS test but I suspect your will be good (crossing my fingers).

[Cubieman]

it is the same on my spare VANOS, the disc takes some persuasion to slide in and out, needs to be done straight forward or it sort of gets stuck. we will see with your pressure and VANOS test but I suspect your will be good (crossing my fingers).

So did you happen to compare Beisan to OE disc on how they feel on shaft?

[maupineda]

So did you happen to compare Beisan to OE disc on how they feel on shaft?

Not yet, but I did feel a very tight feel with no play what so ever. but still not have the BE disc out to compare.

[heinzboehmer]

Hope this fixes your problem cubie. I kinda wish you would have changed one thing at a time just to see what difference each individual component makes. But, tbh I probably would've just changed everything at once too. If only it weren't such a pain to get the VANOS on and off...

[Cubieman]

Hope this fixes your problem cubie. I kinda wish you would have changed one thing at a time just to see what difference each individual component makes. But, tbh I probably would've just changed everything at once too. If only it weren't such a pain to get the VANOS on and off...

I hear you, one thing I think we can agree on is the pressure test is most definitely independent of the S54 vs S62 springs. So if my response time improves/worsens it may be directly related to S54 springs and/or hubs bolts torque, although they were to same spec with same tool. However if the pressure goes from 40bar to 100bar then we can focus on disc unless of course there is something to the hub to disc relation and installation practices. But the disc rests in the roller bearing so its free to move around bit regardless of how it was assembled.

[sapote]

. I kinda wish you would have changed one thing at a time just to see what difference each individual component makes.... If only it weren't such a pain to get the VANOS on and off...

It's a pain to remote/install the VC; the vanos job is not that much time consuming.

[sapote]

I hear you, one thing I think we can agree on is the pressure test is most definitely independent of the S54 vs S62 springs.

The OE disc might have less leakage at the center shaft, but the final gap between the OE disc and the hub tabs can have negative effect on the pump pressure if the offset is too much and causing oil holes blockage or partially blockage.

Did you measure the gap from disc to tabs with the disc flush to the center shaft end?

[heinzboehmer]

I hear you, one thing I think we can agree on is the pressure test is most definitely independent of the S54 vs S62 springs. So if my response time improves/worsens it may be directly related to S54 springs and/or hubs bolts torque, although they were to same spec with same tool. However if the pressure goes from 40bar to 100bar then we can focus on disc unless of course there is something to the hub to disc relation and installation practices. But the disc rests in the roller bearing so its free to move around bit regardless of how it was assembled.

Yup agreed. looking forward to see the results from both tests.

It's a pain to remote/install the VC; the vanos job is not that much time consuming.

Yeah should have worded that better. I meant that it's a pain to get the engine all back together, run the tests, then tear everything back apart to change more stuff.

[Cubieman]

The OE disc might have less leakage at the center shaft, but the final gap between the OE disc and the hub tabs can have negative affect on the pump pressure if the offset is too much and causing oil holes blockage or partially blockage.

Did you measure the gap from disc to tabs with the disc flush to the center shaft end?

I haven't measured that yet, I'll try to get that dimension before closing it up. I think I have a compass somewhere, might go find one today.

[eacmen]

I haven't measured that yet, I'll try to get that dimension before closing it up. I think I have a compass somewhere, might go find one today.

might be able to use feeler gauge set from valve adjustment to measure the gap. Just sandwich some of the gauges together then use calipers to measure the thickness.

[maupineda]

might be able to use feeler gauge set from valve adjustment to measure the gap. Just sandwich some of the gauges together then use calipers to measure the thickness.

I measure ~0.6mm on mine. You can see my picture some pages back. Is difficult to get the gauge to attack perpendicular to the gap for a precise measurement

[sapote]

I haven't measured that yet, I'll try to get that dimension before closing it up. I think I have a compass somewhere, might go find one today.

I think stack up your feeler gauge blades will be even better than compass. BUT DON'T DROP THEM IN THE BLACK HOLE.

[Cubieman]

I think stack up your feeler gauge blades will be even better than compass. BUT DON'T DROP THEM IN THE BLACK HOLE.

Maybe I need to throw a few bolts down there just to spice things up like last time when I broke the timing bridge pin and it went down the head..

[sapote]

I measure ~0.6mm on mine. You can see my picture some pages back. Is difficult to get the gauge to attack perpendicular to the gap for a precise measurement

From pic I thought it's more than 1mm gap. 0.6mm is about half of the oil hole diameter I think. Next time if I have the VANOS off again. I might try to optimize the oil holes alignment to maximize pump efficiency.
If the stock hub tabs have the radius corners instead of sharp machined 90 degrees corners (which are stress risers leading to breakage), then the gap is smaller.

To reduce this gap, one cannot add shim behind the hub as this affect the cup spring force. The only option is to add shim between the disc and tabs.