Timing/Vanos related codes? unable to find source of the issue P0015,P0010, P0185

[M3llowM3]

Socket for crank pulley? I can understand why P185 related with cam sensor codes.

yes I was just out and on my way home grabbed the right size socket to crank manually. will be testing the sensor and ill show my findings here.

[jet_dogg]

Only sapote has the patience for threads like this haha.

Nobody else is responding because they can't diag your car over the internet for some obscure condition. Just wait until you can take it to a proper mechanic.

[M3llowM3]

Only sapote has the patience for threads like this haha.

Nobody else is responding because they can't diag your car over the internet for some obscure condition. Just wait until you can take it to a proper mechanic.

sadly you're right and I fully understand. this is a tricky thing to try and help with just by the forums and I greatly appreciate everyone who has offered their 2 cents in helping me find this issue. it is looking more and more like a mechanical timing issue the further into my diag. i get.

[M3llowM3]

The best way to do is to prove the installed sensor working, not the one that not on the car. The signal requires two parts: sensor and sensor wheel working together, not a screwdriver touching a sensor outside engine. Just turn the crank and measure signal pin2 and move forward from this sensor question.

I have gotten the socket and just performed the test. i believe the sensor is working as it should. 5v with dips to 0 when I turn the crank. took a 50second video of what I saw. sorry about the scratched up meter screen

[sapote]

OK, now you can forget about a bad cam sensor. (Hopefully we don't have to deal with bent sensor wheel that cause wrong timing measured by DME even though the sensor is good.)

Next step I would do is to verify the vanos timing: crank at TDC compression stroke, and check cams timing with the bridge. (You have to loosen the vanos solenoid block to relief the oil pressure off the vanos pistons so they can move easy to max forward position when turning the crank at least 4 turns and park at TDC compression).

[Tomba]

I agree with sapote, check timing as ->

This summer i had my chain tensioner and exhaust hub replaced.

Which exhaust hub to you mean? the one driving the VANOS oil pump?

I was a bit confused with a similar problem I had. This wasn't the sensor. New camshafts were installed and they forgot to swap the valve inside the camshaft causing low pressure build up in low engine speeds. Part #11 in the attached picture.
The camshaft position was behaving exactly like yours. With TestO from Pheno you could log this position from DS2/Serial with a high logging frequency. At the car I had it would jump around only below <2000rpm.
Besides this the VANOS unit would likely need new seals as these could be worn and leak.

[M3llowM3]

I agree with sapote, check timing as ->



Which exhaust hub to you mean? the one driving the VANOS oil pump?

I was a bit confused with a similar problem I had. This wasn't the sensor. New camshafts were installed and they forgot to swap the valve inside the camshaft causing low pressure build up in low engine speeds. Part #11 in the attached picture.
The camshaft position was behaving exactly like yours. With TestO from Pheno you could log this position from DS2/Serial with a high logging frequency. At the car I had it would jump around only below <2000rpm.
Besides this the VANOS unit would likely need new seals as these could be worn and leak.

yeah the vanos exhaust hub was replaced with a VAC hub. my old one had a broken tooth. also had a broken tensioner which was replaced. I'll admit at the point of opening the valve cover and doing any timing myself is where I'm going to set my limit of what I know I can do. I'll likely be taking it to get looked at by my mechanic come spring time and all the road salt is gone. I'll be sure to mention all the important notes and diagnostic steps I took when the car gets to a shop to hopefully make the job a bit easier.

[M3llowM3]

OK, now you can forget about a bad cam sensor. (Hopefully we don't have to deal with bent sensor wheel that cause wrong timing measured by DME even though the sensor is good.)

Next step I would do is to verify the vanos timing: crank at TDC compression stroke, and check cams timing with the bridge. (You have to loosen the vanos solenoid block to relief the oil pressure off the vanos pistons so they can move easy to max forward position when turning the crank at least 4 turns and park at TDC compression).

Thank you for your help and patience. I would hesitate to think the bent sensor would be an issue being it was a new sensor and the readings were still not being displayed on the dme properly between he old or the new sensor.

At this point I agree with your next suggestion, open it and confirm the timing. However this is something I haven't done, and would be a bit nervous doing it my first time unguided. So like suggested earlier I will be taking the car to my mechanic come spring time once the road salt is all gone, and have the timing looked at and confirmed, and we will move forward from there.

A question I do have, would this be safe to drive to the shop? It's about 80km highway driving away from me. Would I be better off towing it there? or I'd be safe to drive it down? (when the time comes of course)

Thank you again to everyone who tried to help me diagnose. I think at this point the sensor is ruled out. With some level of confidence, I think the solenoid is working, but I will be removing one from a known working car and testing that in the coming weeks. Only thing left I can see to do would be open the valve cover and start checking things, like Sapote stated.

[Cubieman]

Sapote was indicating the wheel that is attached to the cam (that the cam sensor reads off of) may be bent I do believe.

I hadn't taken the valve cover off any car ever until last winter when I put Beisan parts in the M3 and checked my valves. Sapota and Maupineda (among others) remember all the dumb questions I asked and were of great help.

There is a very concise set of instructions on setting timing included on the Besian website or newTIS, if you can't get into the newTIS site I know someone could send you a PDF of the insructions. The Besian procedure is almost identical, and if you read through some of my very many old posts you will pick up some tips people left me.

You would need to buy or rent the timing bridge/pin as well as some other basic tools, it is really not difficult, especially if you take your time and do some reading beforehand. That job really really freaked me out but it's honestly not bad. Also, you may not even have to reset timing at all, you may open the valve cover just to find your timing is set just fine. You'll just need valve portion of the vanos (between the solenoid pack and vanos itself) and then you can turn the intake cam as the vehicle advances it after ignition off and you can't do that with the oil pressure present with everything assembled.

[M3llowM3]

Sapote was indicating the wheel that is attached to the cam (that the cam sensor reads off of) may be bent I do believe.

I hadn't taken the valve cover off any car ever until last winter when I put Beisan parts in the M3 and checked my valves. Sapota and Maupineda (among others) remember all the dumb questions I asked and were of great help.

There is a very concise set of instructions on setting timing included on the Besian website or newTIS, if you can't get into the newTIS site I know someone could send you a PDF of the insructions. The Besian procedure is almost identical, and if you read through some of my very many old posts you will pick up some tips people left me.

You would need to buy or rent the timing bridge/pin as well as some other basic tools, it is really not difficult, especially if you take your time and do some reading beforehand. That job really really freaked me out but it's honestly not bad. Also, you may not even have to reset timing at all, you may open the valve cover just to find your timing is set just fine. You'll just need valve portion of the vanos (between the solenoid pack and vanos itself) and then you can turn the intake cam as the vehicle advances it after ignition off and you can't do that with the oil pressure present with everything assembled.

I will read up in the job for sure and see if it's something I'd be comfortable doing. Im less concerned about being able to follow instructions, more concerned that if something else looks wrong I wouldn't recognize it simply due to the fact they I'm unfamiliar with working inside the valve cover

[Cubieman]

I will read up in the job for sure and see if it's something I'd be comfortable doing. Im less concerned about being able to follow instructions, more concerned that if something else looks wrong I wouldn't recognize it simply due to the fact they I'm unfamiliar with working inside the valve cover

Once you get it open you'll see how it all works, if you get to the point of feeling uncomfortable simply re-install the cover. If your timing I'd set correctly you won't have to mess with it so the only things you will be doing that you haven't already done are removing the valve cover and rocking the the exhaust cam with a wrench (24mm?) to it's fully retarded position, you also will want to make sure the intake cam is fully retarded as well.

Shit, now I'm trying to remember if it's the exhaust or intake that is advanced after ignition off. It should be evident, there are holes in the cams for the timing pin, one cam will have that hole more clockwise (as viewed from front of vehicle) than the other. My memory is failing me, sorry

[M3llowM3]

Once you get it open you'll see how it all works, if you get to the point of feeling uncomfortable simply re-install the cover. If your timing I'd set correctly you won't have to mess with it so the only things you will be doing that you haven't already done are removing the valve cover and rocking the the exhaust cam with a wrench (24mm?) to it's fully retarded position, you also will want to make sure the intake cam is fully retarded as well.

Shit, now I'm trying to remember if it's the exhaust or intake that is advanced after ignition off. It should be evident, there are holes in the cams for the timing pin, one cam will have that hole more clockwise (as viewed from front of vehicle) than the other. My memory is failing me, sorry

No need to apologize, I'm sure I'll find all I'm looking for in my research and if I have questions there's people much more knowledgeable than me who seem patient and willing to answer. Thanks for the words of encouragement

[maupineda]

What are the adaptations for VANOS? I would have VANOS test run before taking crap off. If your timing is off this will tell, and by how much. Even the adaptations will tell you this. This is much easier to verify timing, and you should start trying a known working solenoid pack

[M3llowM3]

What are the adaptations for VANOS? I would have VANOS test run before taking crap off. If your timing is off this will tell, and by how much. Even the adaptations will tell you this. This is much easier to verify timing, and you should start trying a known working solenoid pack

Adaptations were all reset when I swapped to the 2nd hand beisan solenoid. It's wintery and salty outside so I can't drive to set adaptations, and I idled for 20 mins or so and worked through the rev ranges and no adaptations set (prob need to actually drive and load the engine for more time). After trying to get those adaptations set that's when I noted the misfire triggering code 185, which also brought the signal for cam sensor 1 from 0 to all over the charts going crazy. After noticing that's what was happening I tested the sensor to see if it functions when I manually cranked and it checked out. Now my next step is likely open it up and check things out myself or get someone who knows what they're doing to do the same in spring time. Still going to try a known good solenoid this weekend but I'm doubtful the beisan one is bad (could be wrong).

[sapote]

Thank you for your help and patience. I would hesitate to think the bent sensor would be an issue being it was a new sensor and the readings were still not being displayed on the dme properly between he old or the new sensor.

At this point I agree with your next suggestion, open it and confirm the timing. However this is something I haven't done, and would be a bit nervous doing it my first time unguided. So like suggested earlier I will be taking the car to my mechanic come spring time once the road salt is all gone, and have the timing looked at and confirmed, and we will move forward from there..

Not a bent senor, but a bent sensing steel wheel mounted on the cam end. Sensor body is plastic, cannot bent.

As Cubieman suggest, it's safe to open the valve cover and look. I will add more suggestion below.

Don’t be afraid to open the valve cover to look and admire at the car’s heart – a beautiful piece of machine. As long as you don’t loosen the cam hubs bolts then the timing never changed from whatever it is now.
Also, you don’t need to spend money for the timing bridge tool if you decide not going to set the vanos timing yourself, you could just use a cheap carpenter square and a drill bit to verify the vanos timing as I did. Take pics and we can help to verify the timing.

You may want to think about these steps and ask questions if they are not clear:

1. Clean up around the valve cover gasket then remove the cover. This requires the removal of ignition coils, the harness, the oil drain banjo bolt and 2 crushed washers (don’t let the inner one drop into the EX manifold heatshield by stuffing napkin below the washer to seal off any openings before removing the banjo bolt). I reused the washers. After cover off, look inside the naked head to find the oil drain holes or opening (some have plastic screen covers) and cover them using napkin. You don’t want anything drop into these holes.
2. Turn crank CW view from front, to TDC compression stroke. Select a best fit drill bit into the cam timing hole – I think it’s about 6mm drill bit. Insert the drill bit in the cam timing hole and set the steel carpenter square (on top of the 2 cams ) with its vertical edge next to the drill bit, take pic. Do this for both cams. This is the cams positions set by DME during engine shut off.
3. Loosen the vanos solenoid module bolts to release the piston oil pressure: There are 4 or 5 Allen bolts, vertical, holding the module to the vanos body. Use towel to clean dust around the mating surface before loosening the bolt to avoid debris get in between the module top mating surface and the vanos body. Place some rag under the module to catch the oil drops. Now turn crank CW 8 turns (good exercise) to ensure the vanos pistons are pushed to their most forward positions (most retarded). Again with drill bit and carpenter square, take pics. Hopefully the vanos pistons are at max retarded and you don’t need to turn the cam with a 24mm opened wrench. But you should be ready to use one if needed.