Timing/Vanos related codes? unable to find source of the issue P0015,P0010, P0185

[M3llowM3]

Not a bent senor, but a bent sensing steel wheel mounted on the cam end. Sensor body is plastic, cannot bent.

As Cubieman suggest, it's safe to open the valve cover and look. I will add more suggestion below.

Don’t be afraid to open the valve cover to look and admire at the car’s heart – a beautiful piece of machine. As long as you don’t loosen the cam hubs bolts then the timing never changed from whatever it is now.
Also, you don’t need to spend money for the timing bridge tool if you decide not going to set the vanos timing yourself, you could just use a cheap carpenter square and a drill bit to verify the vanos timing as I did. Take pics and we can help to verify the timing.

You may want to think about these steps and ask questions if they are not clear:

1. Clean up around the valve cover gasket then remove the cover. This requires the removal of ignition coils, the harness, the oil drain banjo bolt and 2 crushed washers (don’t let the inner one drop into the EX manifold heatshield by stuffing napkin below the washer to seal off any openings before removing the banjo bolt). I reused the washers. After cover off, look inside the naked head to find the oil drain holes or opening (some have plastic screen covers) and cover them using napkin. You don’t want anything drop into these holes.
2. Turn crank CW view from front, to TDC compression stroke. Select a best fit drill bit into the cam timing hole – I think it’s about 6mm drill bit. Insert the drill bit in the cam timing hole and set the steel carpenter square (on top of the 2 cams ) with its vertical edge next to the drill bit, take pic. Do this for both cams. This is the cams positions set by DME during engine shut off.
3. Loosen the vanos solenoid module bolts to release the piston oil pressure: There are 4 or 5 Allen bolts, vertical, holding the module to the vanos body. Use towel to clean dust around the mating surface before loosening the bolt to avoid debris get in between the module top mating surface and the vanos body. Place some rag under the module to catch the oil drops. Now turn crank CW 8 turns (good exercise) to ensure the vanos pistons are pushed to their most forward positions (most retarded). Again with drill bit and carpenter square, take pics. Hopefully the vanos pistons are at max retarded and you don’t need to turn the cam with a 24mm opened wrench. But you should be ready to use one if needed.

Very good information. I appreciate the time you're taking to help me through this. I've heard the valve cover gaskets are reusable?

I'm going to let this information marinate with me for some time while I research it further. Thank you

[Tomba]

The camshafts are set to retard / late once set with factory timing equipment. Exhaust 45 and intake 60 degrees.
Once you start it, the exhaust will advance (45 to 0, earlier opening and earlier closing) to minimize valve overlap (less rest gasses to improve idling). It will rotate indeed clockwise as the direction in front is clockwise.

People who did the VANOS test should know that the engine sounds like it is misfiring during the end stop check. This might be equal to the symptom you experienced before. Once the position of the exhaust camshaft is incorrect (outside normal operation window) it won't detect its position leaving the solenoids untouched. High chance it will go back to factory timing and runs 45/60 with rough running.

[M3llowM3]

okay so i am reviving this thread to post updates (there aren't really any lol), and to see if there is any more input.
So the car sat over the winter and i had an apt for april 12 at an indy shop to have it diagnosed. I told them everything that was posted here and we set the date. the date is approaching and the weather is nice so i decide to take the car out of storage and see if i can diagnose further. I had 0 symptoms. There were no codes, lights, or weird roughness to the idle, the camshaft sensor was properly read out in INPA. Great, my car isn't broken and i don't need to drive 1.5 hrs each way to get it diagnosed. I cancelled my appointment.

Come 1 or 2 weeks after the initial appointment date and I noticed the same funkiness starting again. Same trio of codes, 10,15, and 185. So i parked the car, and made an appointment at the same shop, this time for may 4. The car sat until the day before the appointment where i then decided to start it up and see if it was acting up. and to my surprise, it was completely normal. I drive the car about 150km to the shop the next day and leave. Not 20 mins later the tech calls me and says there no codes being thrown, the car sounds fine, he took it for a spin, and could not find anything wrong. He said he performed a vanos test and everything appears to be functioning properly, and with no symptoms presenting themselves he didn't really have a lot to go on and he believed the car was fine.

I take the car home and drive the next few days and all is good. one day I noticed the car feeling weird on the throttle, small backfires when i let off the gas, and it even stalled out idling just the same it did the first time i noticed this issue. I disconnected the battery for about 20 mins, while i looked around my wiring and made sure everything with the MAP sensor was connected correctly, I also checked the exhaust cam sensor since I replaced that. Reconnected the battery and my codes persisted. I drove over to a friends place (i was on my way to help with something) and he happened to have a fresh set of spark plugs and suggested i could install them to try and see if it would remedy the issue (looking back I'm not sure why it would). Disconnected the battery, and began doing the sparkplugs, which were less than 5000km old and looked fine anyways. reconnect and tie everything back up and the car is acting fine. no codes and they did not reappear (this part of the story was just a few days ago).
car had been fine for about 350km after that point, and i scanned the codes and had the same three codes come back, 10,15 ad 185, cleared the codes and they did not come back on.

Last night i took the car out, about 50km driving and it felt normal and no CEL, but when i scanned the codes, those three codes were back. I cleared the codes and they did not reappear. At this point i decided to (at 2am) remove my vanos valve body and solenoid and thoroughly clean with magnets and brake cleaner(for the third time). cleaned the electrical connections with sensor cleaner, and put everything back together.

I took the car out this morning and it started fine with no codes.i drove about 300km scanning codes intermittently and nothing appeared. I was on my way back home on the highway and decided to scan the code before i parked up. The three codes 10,15, and 185 occurred. I cleared the codes, and they did not return. I plugged in INPA and checked the cam sensor was working (it was). scanned the codes through inpa and it did not return any since i had cleared them minutes prior. Checked the adaptation values and it seems my exhaust vanos adpation has found a value of 0.10 where before I was seeing 0* (this at the time confirmed my suspicion of a vanos issue, but now i have adaptations for the exhaust side so i am even more confused).

I am now at a loss and really have no idea what the heck is going on with this car. Shop isn't open on weekends so i can even get a hold of them until Monday, and even then I'm probably 2 or 3 weeks out from securing an appointment.

Not sure how to end this wall of text other than to ask if anyone has suggestions or ideas, and thank you to everyone who takes the time to read and respond.

[sapote]

The three codes 10,15, and 185 occurred. I cleared the codes, and they did not return. I plugged in INPA and checked the cam sensor was working (it was). scanned the codes through inpa and it did not return.

If possible, list the codes in HEX instead of Decimal since it's takes less time to look up the description. They are: A, F, B9.

I think you have intermittent EX cam sensor signal issue. There are 3 wires and any of them can have a hiccup due to bad connection or shorted out somewhere. To prove my point, clear the codes then run engine and hopefully codes do not come back, then while monitor with code reader, pull the said CPS connector off and see if these same codes pop up in a second.

[M3llowM3]

If possible, list the codes in HEX instead of Decimal since it's takes less time to look up the description. They are: A, F, B9.

I think you have intermittent EX cam sensor signal issue. There are 3 wires and any of them can have a hiccup due to bad connection or shorted out somewhere. To prove my point, clear the codes then run engine and hopefully codes do not come back, then while monitor with code reader, pull the said CPS connector off and see if these same codes pop up in a second.

Just to be clear,
You are suggesting pull the exhaust cam sensor connector while the car is running to see if it produces the codes?

I can do this and report back if that's the case.

[sapote]

Just to be clear,
You are suggesting pull the exhaust cam sensor connector while the car is running to see if it produces the codes?

I can do this and report back if that's the case.

Yes.

[M3llowM3]

If possible, list the codes in HEX instead of Decimal since it's takes less time to look up the description. They are: A, F, B9.

I think you have intermittent EX cam sensor signal issue. There are 3 wires and any of them can have a hiccup due to bad connection or shorted out somewhere. To prove my point, clear the codes then run engine and hopefully codes do not come back, then while monitor with code reader, pull the said CPS connector off and see if these same codes pop up in a second.

okay so I have performed the test you suggested. I plugged inpa in, cleared my codes and then started the car. rechecked to confirm codes did not appear and there were still 0 codes. I then left he car running, got out and unplugged the exhaust cam sensor. I did not notice any audible change in the idle. I went to look at the cam signal in INPA and it appears the sensor signal just froze at the last known position. I scanned codes and code A and F both came up instantly with no CEL. Cleared them and they were instantly there again.

So i suspect you are on to something. my exhaust cam sensor wiring may be the culprit?
What I'm assuming has been happening is maybe there is a break somewhere in the wiring causing an intermittent connection, and when it triggers the codes A and F instantly from the cam sensor being disconnected, code B9 is soon to follow. But if the intermittent connection reconnects before the code B9 triggers, I can clear the codes and no codes reappear( as happened on my way home today after ~300km).

[sapote]

So it’s not about Vanos timing setting issue, but the sensor signal issue.
You installed a new sensor but it wasn’t verified to be good or bad. Is it possible to verify with another car?
Do this: with connector removed from sensor, with key turned on or engine running, the middle pin should be 5v, the outer pins should be 12v and GND, but I don’t remember which. Report the exact measurements

[M3llowM3]

So it’s not about Vanos timing setting issue, but the sensor signal issue.
You installed a new sensor but it wasn’t verified to be good or bad. Is it possible to verify with another car?
Do this: with connector removed from sensor, with key turned on or engine running, the middle pin should be 5v, the outer pins should be 12v and GND, but I don’t remember which. Report the exact measurements

I did this much earlier in the thread, post 6, by your reccomendation also, and the pins on the connector provided proper voltage.
However I'm really thinking there's a break somewhere causing intermittent connection to the sensor. Mostly due to the fact that the codes persisted even when I got the new sensor.

You are right though, I have not confirmed its a good sensor other than measuring the voltage and manually cranking.

The fact that the codes came back immediately upon disconnect from the sensor make me wonder if there cold be a connection being interrupted by vibration.

[sapote]

You are right though, I have not confirmed its a good sensor other than measuring the voltage and manually cranking.

The fact that the codes came back immediately upon disconnect from the sensor make me wonder if there cold be a connection being interrupted by vibration.

1. During manually turning the crank, you should see the sensor pin2 signal switching from 5v to 0V vice versa and this is the proof that it's working.
2. If I were you, I will run a separate wire from sensor pin2 to DME X60003 pin2 and see if this fixes the codes. If codes come back, then add a wire on sensor pin1 to 12v and pin3 to GND directly and drive test again.

Note: connect pinpin1 to 12v only when engine running and remove this when engine off to avoid discharge the batt.

[M3llowM3]

1. During manually turning the crank, you should see the sensor pin2 signal switching from 5v to 0V vice versa and this is the proof that it's working.
2. If I were you, I will run a separate wire from sensor pin2 to DME X60003 pin2 and see if this fixes the codes. If codes come back, then add a wire on sensor pin1 to 12v and pin3 to GND directly and drive test again.

Note: connect pinpin1 to 12v only when engine running and remove this when engine off to avoid discharge the batt.

I'll use this information next time the codes reappear. After testing the codes while unplugging the sensor, I just buttoned up the wiring and made sure all connections were good and tight and no breaks (Atleast from what I can see but I did not continuity test the existing wires yet). I drove today, about 200km. Car felt fine, I was scanning for engine codes every 20km or so with no reoccurrences. I spoke with my mechanic and they suggested they too now believe its a wiring or dme issue (since the dme was modified by kassel its possible something is not right?). The mechanic has suggested to maybe try another hp dme and see if it produces the same intermittent problem.

[M3llowM3]

1. During manually turning the crank, you should see the sensor pin2 signal switching from 5v to 0V vice versa and this is the proof that it's working.
2. If I were you, I will run a separate wire from sensor pin2 to DME X60003 pin2 and see if this fixes the codes. If codes come back, then add a wire on sensor pin1 to 12v and pin3 to GND directly and drive test again.

Note: connect pinpin1 to 12v only when engine running and remove this when engine off to avoid discharge the batt.

How would you reccomend I do this? I am looking at the 52 pin connector now but I'm not sure how I would bypass the existing wiring without cutting a length off the original wire and solder in a replacement length.
Also I am looking in the bentley manual and I see it states the pin assignments for the 52 pin connector, but it only provides the assignments for ms42 and ms43. Is this where you got the idea to connect to pin 2?
The manual states pin 2 signal (I assume this remains the same for mss54) and pin 15 is ground, but this does not apply to my case apparently because pin 15 is empty on my harness. Is there anywhere online that lists the mss54/hp pin assignments?

[sapote]

You should always list the car's tranny type and month/year build as electrical wirings are different for some years and tranny. I didn't see this on the first post.

[M3llowM3]

You should always list the car's tranny type and month/year build as electrical wirings are different for some years and tranny. I didn't see this on the first post.

Sorry, this didn't occur to me.
It's smg from factory but I swapped to 6spd last summer, production date 2002 September 20.
And my dme was converted to hp by kassel when I installed my airbox.

[sapote]

"but this does not apply to my case apparently because pin 15 is empty "
You should also double check these empty pins: 3, 9, 11,12, 15,16, 18, 19 to be sure this pinout is for your DME.



pin2 and pin6 : to sensor signal (pin2). You could cut pin2 and pin6 wires off at 2" from the 52pin connector, then solder or twist the new wire to them, then connect the other end of the new wire to the sensor pin2 (do the same of cutting off the old wire about 1 - 2" from sensor and solder the new wire to the sensor connector). This isolates the old wire.

For the 12v and GND wires, leave them alone and add 2 new wires to the sensor GND (using chassis ground) and 12v (using fender jumper post 12v). Before doing all of these works, I suggest to check the sensor connector pin terminals and tighten the female pin gaps a little. Do the same at the DME connector.


Applies to: smg2 2001/09 - 2004/08