MK20 -> MK60 Swap

[terra]

Will keep an eye out for Z4M modules/partouts and swap one in if I can get it for cheap. Only unknown is if it'll communicate and not throw any errors with the rest of the modules in the car. Are Z4M modules flashable via WinKFP?

The Z4M module isn't flashable by WinKFP as far as I can tell. When I tried invoking commands manually to gain security access, it didn't respond to those, so I suspect those routines don't exist / are disabled like on the E46 DSC modules.

The can-bus and K-line communications are the same basic format as the E46 module. What I'm not 100% sure about is if the module wants some extra information that the E46 doesn't normally broadcast (I have heard the Z4 instrument broadcasts the rain sensor status over the can-bus for the disc brake wipe feature), but any differences should be minor and adaptable.

I did run into the same wiring differences you found earlier. Overall I think it's feasible, but never got around to it because A) the car used to be my daily driver and B) I'm busy with work. A is no longer the case for me. As for B... when I start a real job next year I anticipate my income quadrupling and my schedule becoming 7 on / 14 off... so I might actually be able to work on some shit.

If you are searching for modules, you don't technically need a Z4M module. Facelift Z4 non-M module would also work IIRC, they just have different coding parameters. Non-facelift is just a standard non-M MK60 tho.

The other thing I've always found interesting but could never find more info on is the Z4 2008 Motorsport catalog mentioning a race version of the MK60 as well as a readout cable and software

[heinzboehmer]

The Z4M module isn't flashable by WinKFP as far as I can tell. When I tried invoking commands manually to gain security access, it didn't respond to those, so I suspect those routines don't exist / are disabled like on the E46 DSC modules.

The can-bus and K-line communications are the same basic format as the E46 module. What I'm not 100% sure about is if the module wants some extra information that the E46 doesn't normally broadcast (I have heard the Z4 instrument broadcasts the rain sensor status over the can-bus for the disc brake wipe feature), but any differences should be minor and adaptable.

I did run into the same wiring differences you found earlier. Overall I think it's feasible, but never got around to it because A) the car used to be my daily driver and B) I'm busy with work. A is no longer the case for me. As for B... when I start a real job next year I anticipate my income quadrupling and my schedule becoming 7 on / 14 off... so I might actually be able to work on some shit.

If you are searching for modules, you don't technically need a Z4M module. Facelift Z4 non-M module would also work IIRC, they just have different coding parameters. Non-facelift is just a standard non-M MK60 tho.

The other thing I've always found interesting but could never find more info on is the Z4 2008 Motorsport catalog mentioning a race version of the MK60 as well as a readout cable and software

Nice! Excited to see what you do with it. And good to know about the non-M modules, I'll keep that in mind.

You're on the other side of the country, no? My harness is still running across my engine bay, so super accessible for swapping pins around and experimenting. If you were closer, it would have been interesting to repin my harness and plug your Z4M module in just to see if either the car or module get angry.

[terra]

Yeah I'm on the east coast

Think I found an accurate pinout from TIS. Attached PDF. Seems to match up with the pinout you made

[heinzboehmer]

Nice find. Does seem to match up.

The one other difference I just noticed is that the M3 MK60 has two 2.5mm² power wires feeding it that come from 30A fuses (F56 and F61). The Z4M one has one 2.5mm² wire coming from a 20A fuse and one 4.0mm² wire coming from a 40A fuse. However, F56 and F61 only feed the MK60 on the M3, so should be easy to deal with.

Would need to swap out F56 for a 20A fuse and then run a 4.0mm² wire to F61 —in place of the 2.5mm² wire that's already there— and swap out F61 for a 40A fuse. Shouldn't be any extra work to run the bigger wire since the wire for pin 17 needs to be run anyway.

Had a quick look on eBay and wow those Z4 modules are expensive. Cheapest I found was ~$600. Guess I'll have to wait until a car pops up at a junkyard.

[eacmen]

Still unsure what “motorsport” ABS program gives you. Can you put a switch in the cabin and dial it up and down? Do you get the tuning software to make adjustments yourself?

Spending that much money I would at least want the ability to change the program based on tires and track conditions.


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[terra]

Still unsure what “motorsport” ABS program gives you. Can you put a switch in the cabin and dial it up and down? Do you get the tuning software to make adjustments yourself?

Spending that much money I would at least want the ability to change the program based on tires and track conditions.


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I don't know what the MK60 motorsport versions get you specifically, but the Bosch M4 Motorsport kit lets you do precisely that

https://www.bosch-motorsport.com/med..._m4_ait_en.pdf

Contintental has this: https://conti-engineering.com/domain...otorsport-abs/

Apparently based on the "MK100" stability control modules. Perhaps in the past there was a listing for an MK60 variant, but I cannot find them now. Honestly at $7k for a full kit new with software support and tunability... I think that'd be well worth the expense over a $3-4k mk60 "race" kit if I were actually building a race car.

Where things could get interesting is if the consumer variants of those newer modules can be flashed with the respecitve motorsport software without having to pay some guy in Germany a few grand to do it. Contintental RSX = MK100 (and various variants are like $60 on ebay), bosch M4 = bosch 8.1, bosch M5 = bosch 9.0. The bosch 8.1 apparently has an MPC555 CPU, so that might actually be feasible to flash even for us mere mortals if we can get the software dump.

But I digress. Sorry for taking thisthread off topic.

[thegenius46m]

Thanks! You bring up a good point. IIRC, the only differences between the non-M and M3 MK60 systems are the master cylinder, the electrical module and that TPMS was optional on non-Ms (although that's just one wire and coding).

That being said, it's practically impossible to remove/install bent brake lines with the engine, transmission and gas tank still in the car. Even if you find a car in a junkyard that's missing these things, you'll probably end up deforming the lines when installing and will still have to do some work to get them back into shape. I guess it's a matter of preference, but, like you said, brand new (unbent) lines are cheap directly from BMW.

Good point! I was a little lazy looking that up but valid point about breaking them. I personally would buy brand new. At the minimum, junkyard is a great place to experiment with this stuff before you commit on a project of this magnitude if you don't know your way around as you get to decide if you really want to commit on your own car before you have it apart and are in a can't turn back situation lol

[Bry5on]

If you’re looking for junkyard brake lines, Heinz and I discovered that the passenger front brake line is slightly different between the M and non-M MK60 cars. The non-M runs right on top of the front longitudinal frame rail (where the M3 heat shield is) and the M3 runs a couple inches up, against the fender well sheet metal. Subtle difference, but it does prevent using the M3 heat shield on a non-M due to interference.

[heinzboehmer]

If you’re looking for junkyard brake lines, Heinz and I discovered that the passenger front brake line is slightly different between the M and non-M MK60 cars. The non-M runs right on top of the front longitudinal frame rail (where the M3 heat shield is) and the M3 runs a couple inches up, against the fender well sheet metal. Subtle difference, but it does prevent using the M3 heat shield on a non-M due to interference.

Oh right! But actually, now I think I might have done that incorrectly. I copied the MK20 line, which runs up against the fender well, so that's why mine looks like that. MK60 cars do have it exactly like your wagon does. Plastic brake holder clip goes on top of the heat shield.

Guess you could use the heat shield, but you'd still be missing those two other studs.

See page 15 and 16 of this doc: https://drive.google.com/file/d/19Fp...w?usp=drivesdk

[Nate047]

Nice write up. Appreciate the cheek too lol.

So let me ask the 2 million dollar question(s). How mush was all of this in total? And... Was it worth it? Tell me about the difference in drive experience.

[heinzboehmer]

Nice write up. Appreciate the cheek too lol.
So let me ask the 2 million dollar question(s). How mush was all of this in total? And... Was it worth it? Tell me about the difference in drive experience.

Just added it all up and it came out to right around $2.1k.

• $1100 - new parts (brake lines, clips, gaskets, etc.)
  • I'll get ~$300 of this back once I send all the lifetime warranty parts back to FCP (exhaust gaskets, exhaust nuts/bolts, CSB, etc.)
• $700 - used MK60, wheel speed sensors, brake booster, master cylinder, fluid reservoir and pigtail
• $400 - wiring, PCB and non-M MK20 (used for connector)
  • This was the most unexpected expense because I had originally planned to just splice/solder wires from the MK20 plug to the MK60 pigtail, which would have been basically free. Worth it for the debuggability, reliability and safety though.
• $200 - tools I didn't have (crimper for the wire pins, brake line bender, brake line cutter, etc.)
• $100 - consumables (brake cleaner, shop towels, etc.)

So yeah not exactly cheap. I should be able to sell the MK20 parts and make some of this back, though.

So far, I've noticed zero difference in driving experience. I've only had a chance to drive around town and on the highway a bit (on cold track tires too), so this is actually a good thing. I would expect the car to feel exactly the same during the mundane driving bits and so far that has been the case.

I'm sure M track mode makes a decent difference in the canyons, but I haven't tried it. Friend also recently flipped their car there (everyone was fine) and that has kinda put me off of spirited driving on public roads, so don't expect those types of driving impressions from me any time soon.

Big one is on the track. Going down to laguna seca on the 31st, so I can give my impressions after that. I'll try out DSC fully on, M track mode and DSC fully off. I'm used to driving with DSC off on track (MK20 is horrendous for that kind of driving), so I'll probably just end up doing that anyway, but we'll see.

I do realize that this sorta makes it sound like I spent a bunch of time and money on something that makes no difference to the driving experience, since there's no difference on the street and I don't use DSC on track. I promise I'm not an idiot though (at least not entirely).

The one big thing that pushed me to do this swap is the compatibility with bigger brakes and different steering racks. I plan on doing both of these things soonish (calipers are sitting in the garage) and did not want the MK20 to freak out with those changes. I can code the MK60 for these two things, so the mods should not affect the driving experience negatively.

I've also heard that the MK20 going into ice mode is a decently big problem on track. Never had it happen to me, but still glad to have eliminated that risk.

All in all, I'm not sure yet if it was worth it. It was a great learning experience and it feels good to have a fully refreshed braking system that I can trust, but it was a ton of work. I also have trouble sitting still and not messing with the car though, so I'm sure that played a role in why I decided to go ahead with this swap

[Nate047]

Cool, which brakes are you going with which might not be compatible with MK20? I'm curious because my car is an early '01 MK20 and I am about to jump into my build. I have the Freaky Parts front brakes and 996 rears, I assume you must be talking about something more intense than that but I'd like to hear what you have planned and why it wouldn't work with MK20. I'll probably leave my steering rack alone but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that just for my knowledge base too.

I'm not personally concerned with DSC, or M track mode. I drive my cars either on the street with street tires and not very fast, or on the track with DSC off. What I have read is that ice mode *tends* to not present itself until you are on slicks and using aero, unpredictable freak accident circumstances notwithstanding. And I feel like if I ever get my car to that phase where I'm doing aero and slicks, I can tack on another couple grand to upgrade the ABS, but I probably won't worry about it until then.

[heinzboehmer]

Cool, which brakes are you going with which might not be compatible with MK20? I'm curious because my car is an early '01 MK20 and I am about to jump into my build. I have the Freaky Parts front brakes and 996 rears, I assume you must be talking about something more intense than that but I'd like to hear what you have planned and why it wouldn't work with MK20. I'll probably leave my steering rack alone but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that just for my knowledge base too.

I'm not personally concerned with DSC, or M track mode. I drive my cars either on the street with street tires and not very fast, or on the track with DSC off. What I have read is that ice mode *tends* to not present itself until you are on slicks and using aero, unpredictable freak accident circumstances notwithstanding. And I feel like if I ever get my car to that phase where I'm doing aero and slicks, I can tack on another couple grand to upgrade the ABS, but I probably won't worry about it until then.

Doing 996 all around, but will also be going up to the ZCP rotor size. I mean it would work, but ABS wouldn't be working optimally if it thinks the rotors are a different size than what they actually are. ABS is the one thing I do care about on track, so wanted to make sure that was working correctly. I'll likely be getting a ZHP yellow tag steering rack.

[tlow98]

Just came in here to say, thank you. Incredible write-up. Something to consider when I drop the entire driveline from my 2002 sedan… consider being the key word. This far more involved than I thought!

[Nate047]

Doing 996 all around, but will also be going up to the ZCP rotor size. I mean it would work, but ABS wouldn't be working optimally if it thinks the rotors are a different size than what they actually are. ABS is the one thing I do care about on track, so wanted to make sure that was working correctly. I'll likely be getting a ZHP yellow tag steering rack.

Gotcha, yea the fronts I am using are also the 345mm. But again that begs the question of how something like a 355mm StopTech for example works with the MK20 ABS. Or older cars like the E36 which has 3-channel ABS, lots of people run BBK of various types on those cars. Just kind of spitballing here. Sounds like you looked into this a lot so I just wanna soak up some secondhand info.