S54 Dyno Database

[eXpensiveGears]

Anyone have experience with Steve Dinan's new shop, Carbahn? Seems like he might be a good alternative to Lang. I am thinking about doing a full build on my car but definitely not using Lang anymore.

[stash1]

I grew up in Montgomery Co. Left for the USAF and returned, then moved to Columbia, Md. Moved again -- sadly. Now stuck in Mo. They don't call it Misery for no reason.

Not wrong about Baltimore. FAR rougher than inner city DC.

Gotcha, yeah, I'd rather be stuck here in Md. than there!😉

[snaponbob]

I started posting up a comparison graph, but realized that your torque numbers are actually pretty comparable to a similar vehicle above 3,500 rpms. (The bell shape of your curve was throwing me off-lol.) Under 3,500 rpms though, your torque falls off of a cliff...that's a characteristic of a large single pipe set up. A traditional well tuned twin-pipe set up will hold a pretty flat torque from just above 2,000 all the way up to red-line. I think my car was down around 50 ft. lbs. under 3,500 rpms...and that was w/tuning. Ha, it's an ok state, if you can avoid Baltimore City...think we're like #2 on the murder rate hit list now-UUGH!

I grew up in Montgomery Co. Left for the USAF and returned, then moved to Columbia, Md. Moved again -- sadly. Now stuck in Mo. They don't call it Misery for no reason.

Not wrong about Baltimore. FAR rougher than inner city DC.

[duracellttu]

Hmm, I have similar mods that were just done with a similar built head as well. 340whp on a dyno jet seems awfully low with that setup. Have you leakdown tested the motor out of curiosity? When I got my stage 3 head back from Lang it had leaking valves and my local machinist had to fix it. Hard to believe cats in section 1 is really robbing 20 whp but it’s been a bit since I checked.


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Yeah I have been talking with a local tuner to so if the power up top after 7.5k rpms can be addressed. Did a bunch of work over the winter to include having the fuel injectors serviced. All of my injectors were out of spec. It sure how much that will contribute but I’m sure it will help. I’m also planning to get my coils replaced since they are over 10 years old.

Hoping to get back on the dyno this spring to see what happens. Can you share your dyno results? Who did your tune?

[thegenius46m]

I didn't want to shit on anyone's parade but that is lang in a nutshell. I often wonder why people spend their hard earned dollars on their unproven work.

I contacted them several years ago for a quote on racp job and one of the guys told me 3-3.5k-ish which is double the going rate. I asked if they had any re-failures and the guy said no etc, the typical sales bs.

That was before I learned the true story of how Andrew got started and all that but people seem to want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I myself would have a real engine builder touch my shit.

For real. I learned A LOT during the process I wish I had known beforehand. I have also learned to NEVER trust someone for guidance just because they have “forum cred” because in the grand scheme the whole “this dude does great work” is worthless majority of the time because a large percentage of people reviewing businesses don’t even have data and proof to backup their claims lol.

You live you learn.

Funny it seems every couple months a new Lang story comes to light. Buddy of mine on here got the street version of a carbon roof from him in 2019 and he had it clear coated after the fact. Well the carbon has completely faded through and his car sees ZERO sun and is garaged lol. Andrew responded with “it’s a racecar product and most people don’t care to complain about it.”

Well of course people aren’t complaining on a racecar. They aren’t looking. That’s no excuse though for poor workmanship and quality. That’s just a cop out.


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[jet_dogg]

I didn't want to shit on anyone's parade but that is lang in a nutshell. I often wonder why people spend their hard earned dollars on their unproven work.

I contacted them several years ago for a quote on racp job and one of the guys told me 3-3.5k-ish which is double the going rate. I asked if they had any re-failures and the guy said no etc, the typical sales bs.

That was before I learned the true story of how Andrew got started and all that but people seem to want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I myself would have a real engine builder touch my shit.

[thegenius46m]

Lang is shit to be honest. He's a GREAT sales guy but claims a lot of the work is his and done in-house when in reality he's just using a subpar guy to do everything. I gave the dude $7k and the communication was crap. I had to constantly call to get any sort of updates and when I asked about changing to the valves I am now using and paying the difference he told me what he had ON HAND was good enough for my usage which was not true. He just wanted to make a quick sale and not deal with putting in effort to change a work order. My fault for learning this while the work was being done because there was no real consultation at all and this was my first engine build. Wouldn't make the same mistakes again next time around, but you live you learn. I know three other guys who I am personally friends with that have had similarly poor experiences with Andrew setting expectations and delivering entirely a left field result. The fact the leaking valves were only caught because I had the head redone is pretty bad if I'm being honest. I even received a note on my head from the machinist to make sure to install lash caps when setting the valve clearances and I didn't even purchase the valves that require those! Lol.

After dealing with Lang first hand, I am now convinced his reputation is a lot of hype driven. Those who heavily work on the products he has services for, the conclusion is all the same, the quality of work is subpar and communication is non-existent for a very high price. This is not a buyers remorse response, but more of a buyer beware post because a lot of people here that came out to me to tell me their equally horrible experiences with Andrew were not vocal enough to post on the forums about it.

[digger]

interesting. never knew that.

It’s just my observation a stage 2 or 3 head should easily outperform a stock head but nothing really standouts IMO. Obviously there is only 1 way to know definitively. A lot of data lost on old forums to

[0-60motorsports]

Engines with lang heads never seemed to do any better than stock head though ( all else equal)

interesting. never knew that.

[digger]

Always thought Langs was job was top notch and I know it was....Maybe quality has dropped since covid...

Engines with lang heads never seemed to do any better than stock head though ( all else equal)

[0-60motorsports]

Nope. Lang uses his own machinist across town and claims he does the work. My "Lang" head was drop shipped to my house from his machinist. Lang also claims leakdown of 2-3% or less which is bs because I got my head back wiht 3 valves leaking. My local machinist fixed it all. Dude sucks lol.

Always thought Langs was job was top notch and I know it was....Maybe quality has dropped since covid...

[thegenius46m]

Aren’t vac doing their heads ?

Nope. Lang uses his own machinist across town and claims he does the work. My "Lang" head was drop shipped to my house from his machinist. Lang also claims leakdown of 2-3% or less which is bs because I got my head back wiht 3 valves leaking. My local machinist fixed it all. Dude sucks lol.

[stash1]

Thanks for the input. It IS a single pipe system. When I detailed the specs to Karl, that was included. And I agree with comment about track use. Not sure if you saw the dyno trace I post a day or two ago, but the torque curve is nice. There is another dyno printout earlier in this thread that shows a REALLY flat curve from 2500 so I was curious about that.

I had a 98 M3 that I modded in a similar fashion. It had a 3" single system with a single 100 cell cat. Never dyno'ed it, but it was stronger than other similar M3s I worked on. I did barrow a similar 2.5 single system form an E36 325 that I had installed. I could really feel the power loss. I can't imaging a 3" single system flowing better on an S54 than a 3.5" single system. After all, Bimmerworld sell single pipe race systems for both E36 and E46 M3s, and they are 3" and 3.5" respectively. Not taking sides on the debate, but I tend to think they know what they are doing given their racing experience.

BTW, I miss living in Maryland SOOO much.

I started posting up a comparison graph, but realized that your torque numbers are actually pretty comparable to a similar vehicle above 3,500 rpms. (The bell shape of your curve was throwing me off-lol.) Under 3,500 rpms though, your torque falls off of a cliff...that's a characteristic of a large single pipe set up. A traditional well tuned twin-pipe set up will hold a pretty flat torque from just above 2,000 all the way up to red-line. I think my car was down around 50 ft. lbs. under 3,500 rpms...and that was w/tuning. Ha, it's an ok state, if you can avoid Baltimore City...think we're like #2 on the murder rate hit list now-UUGH!

[snaponbob]

The answer to your question is simple: it’s been proven by many (myself included), and many times over, that a single 3.5” pipe kills bottom end torque. You can compensate somewhat w/cam timing, but you will never get all of the low end torque back. Your tuner of choice should be able to compensate a bit for the single pipe. But I know many track guys prefer a single pipe for weight savings, and most track cars spend the majority of time over 4,500rpms…sooo, low end torque typically isn’t as critical on a track car vs. a street car.

Thanks for the input. It IS a single pipe system. When I detailed the specs to Karl, that was included. And I agree with comment about track use. Not sure if you saw the dyno trace I post a day or two ago, but the torque curve is nice. There is another dyno printout earlier in this thread that shows a REALLY flat curve from 2500 so I was curious about that.

I had a 98 M3 that I modded in a similar fashion. It had a 3" single system with a single 100 cell cat. Never dyno'ed it, but it was stronger than other similar M3s I worked on. I did barrow a similar 2.5 single system form an E36 325 that I had installed. I could really feel the power loss. I can't imaging a 3" single system flowing better on an S54 than a 3.5" single system. After all, Bimmerworld sell single pipe race systems for both E36 and E46 M3s, and they are 3" and 3.5" respectively. Not taking sides on the debate, but I tend to think they know what they are doing given their racing experience.

BTW, I miss living in Maryland SOOO much.

[stash1]

The tune is from Active Autowerks and are usually quite good. I have e-mailed them the charts to see what they think.

That said, I saw some earlier NA S54 dyno plots from similar setups as mine showing substantial torque coming in at rather low rpm. I wonder how that can be achieved.

The answer to your question is simple: it’s been proven by many (myself included), and many times over, that a single 3.5” pipe kills bottom end torque. You can compensate somewhat w/cam timing, but you will never get all of the low end torque back. Your tuner of choice should be able to compensate a bit for the single pipe. But I know many track guys prefer a single pipe for weight savings, and most track cars spend the majority of time over 4,500rpms…sooo, low end torque typically isn’t as critical on a track car vs. a street car.