Failed vanos test post Beisan

[Cubieman]

I would be nervous turning the key in there, what if somehow the starter cranks and ended up with bent valves?
You could remove the EWS connector to disable the starter, or just remove the battery and jump the car with a 10A supply or charger.

Maybe I will wait until vanos is installed just to be safe. I wish the EX cam wasnt so far advanced vs the IN cam so I could forget it and move on, now I feel I have to dick around with that to satisfy my nervous behavior.

[sapote]

Maybe I will wait until vanos is installed just to be safe. I wish the EX cam wasnt so far advanced vs the IN cam so I could forget it and move on, now I feel I have to dick around with that to satisfy my nervous behavior.

The amount of EX cam advanced you saw is way more than the DME can adapt (that you wanted to read out) to get it in normal operation, therefore it is not caused by timing drifted. I bet on this.

You always have the chance to verify this once you have the vanos installed without the solenoid plate: turn the crank a few turns and verify the timing.

[Cubieman]

I installed the vanos and turned engine over 4 times with the same result of EX cam advanced. It is far enough that the pin won't even go into the hole, the IN cam is perfect with bridge flat.
Wondering if I need to re-time and how this happened.

I also pulled my adaptations, they have not changed in regards to vanos since my original read after I installed the vanos the first time.

I am nervous looking at how far off my EX cam is at TDC 1, but also know this is how the car ran and simply taking the vanos off did not change timing.

On the second to last ignition cycle a vanos test was performed, I wonder if that and/or the S62 springs have anything to do with my EX cam issue.

[maupineda]

I’m glad you agreed that the hub bottomed out on the sprocket. I don’t know how can you tell they are bottomed on each other or a tiny gap by looking at a pic.

The hub, sprocket and the threaded 6-hole ring on the cam have to be clamped altogether by the 6 hub bolts at 14Nm. If they are not bottomed on each other, the timing that one painstakingly set will be changed as the hub slides against the sprocket in operation.
Re to the spring cup, it only contacts the hub by a thin circular line and so there is very little contact surface area to worry about increase friction and slow down the vanos response, even for the S62 cup. Without the cup to preload, there is a tiny gap between the sprocket to the cam and the push/pull action of the vanos piston will cause rattling by this tiny axial plays.

I hope we all agreed that bolting down the hub bolts to 14Nm, or even higher, will not change the distance from the hub tabs to the disc.

the oil varnish pattern on the back of the hub as well as the front of the sprocket are the witness marks that they are line to line and the cup spring is compressed and contained within the pocket at the back of the hub.





And an S62 just for reference

[maupineda]

Is it acceptable/safe to read vanos adaptations while vanos is removed? I assume this is stored data and nothing is read "real time".

you will set and store a a few codes, but you can reset those after all is back together, other than that, there is no harm.

[Cubieman]

For reference, here is the point at which the bridge/pin sits flat on head when inserted into EX cam. The crank must be ~3/4" CCW of TDC to allow the bridge to sit flush, what gives?

Edit: pulled off cap on exhaust side of vanos and piston is nowhere near fully extended, so apparently I am unable to retard cam without using what I feel is too much force.

[sapote]

For reference, here is the point at which the bridge/pin sits flat on head when inserted into EX cam. The crank must be ~3/4" CCW of TDC to allow the bridge to sit flush, what gives?

Edit: pulled off cap on exhaust side of vanos and piston is nowhere near fully extended, so apparently I am unable to retard cam without using what I feel is too much force.

For some reasons turning the crank few turns didn't push the EX piston to its forward max position. With the vanos removed, why didn't you turn the EX cam to max retard and align to the pin? With that, when you bolted down the vanos, everything lined up.

[sapote]

" so apparently I am unable to retard cam without using what I feel is too much force"
It's not easy to turn the cam to force the spline shaft forward. This is why the cam is too advanced. But nothing has changed.

[sapote]

If you guys worry that the S62 causing too much friction to rotate the cam, then why using it? Worry that the stock spring cup not strong enough and causing rattle?

[Cubieman]

If you guys worry that the S62 causing too much friction to rotate the cam, then why using it? Worry that the stock spring cup not strong enough and causing rattle?

I may simply re-install my original S54 springs, I have them labeled so they can go back into correct hubs.

I think the S62 springs and/or over tightened hubs bolts are the cause of me not being able to retard EX cam fully by hand without REALLY laying into it which I don't want to do.

I think I will also check the anti-rattle parts in put in the exhaust splined shaft as turning the shaft by hand while pressing in creates a gritty feel when I turn the threaded portion of splined shaft sticking out of hub. This could also be the cause or contribute to me not being able to retard EX cam fully by hand.

[sapote]

"I think I will also check the anti-rattle parts in put in the exhaust splined shaft as turning the shaft by hand while pressing in creates a gritty feel when I turn the threaded portion of splined shaft sticking out of hub. This could also be the cause or contribute to me not being able to retard EX cam fully by hand."
This has nothing to do with hard to turn the cam to retard. It is for preventing the piston turning (wear the seals) when cam rotating, but of course you can easily turn the piston if the spline shaft bearing is seized.

[Cubieman]

"I think I will also check the anti-rattle parts in put in the exhaust splined shaft as turning the shaft by hand while pressing in creates a gritty feel when I turn the threaded portion of splined shaft sticking out of hub. This could also be the cause or contribute to me not being able to retard EX cam fully by hand."
This has nothing to do with hard to turn the cam to retard. It is for preventing the piston turning (wear the seals) when cam rotating, but of course you can easily turn the piston if the spline shaft bearing is seized.

Got it, I still don't fully understand the it's and outs of the system.
I took my hubs off and will try to make use of this for more information shared.

S62 plates = 3.19mm
S54 plates= 3.54mm (these are my factory plates/springs)

So while the S62 cup springs may be more rigid the S54 plates are thicker.

Also here are some other measurements, but a word of caution I used some cheapo digital calipers.

From top of vanos shaft to middle of groove= 10.15mm

From top of disc (both beisan and OE) to middle of inner hole = 9.58mm

[sapote]

From top of vanos shaft to middle of groove= 10.15mm
From top of disc (both beisan and OE) to middle of inner hole = 9.58mm

So if the disc top face is lined up flush with the center shaft, then we have the disc oil holes offset by 10.15 - 9.58 = 0.57mm, rearward (driver vu), and then during operation, the disc further pushed rearward until contacted the hub tabs, and then causing even more offset to the disc oil holes. I was thinking when the disc is flush with the shaft, the disc holes should be offset toward the front in order to compensate for during operation when it is pushed further rearward. This is not good for the disc oil holes alignment.

[Cubieman]

Yes, I agree, there is nothing to keep the disc from getting pushed out of alignment with groove.

I will say though off hand this different disc makes a louder pumping sound when disc is spun by hand in vanos, it is also harder to turn. This disc is more difficult to position and drop onto shaft, when it drops onto shaft with gravity it drops slowly where the besian disc would install on shaft easier and immediately fall straight down the shaft when lined up correctly. I feel just the decrease in play on the inside of disc may be significant to oil pressure, but a pressure test is what I will trust.

[Anri]

I may simply re-install my original S54 springs, I have them labeled so they can go back into correct hubs.

I think the S62 springs and/or over tightened hubs bolts are the cause of me not being able to retard EX cam fully by hand without REALLY laying into it which I don't want to do.

I think I will also check the anti-rattle parts in put in the exhaust splined shaft as turning the shaft by hand while pressing in creates a gritty feel when I turn the threaded portion of splined shaft sticking out of hub. This could also be the cause or contribute to me not being able to retard EX cam fully by hand.

Gents,


I adore all of of the comments, but wrong concept.

Cubieman, you are doing the cam timing very very wrong and so toons of people I see. Its
a major mistake people repeat over and over again. I understand the TiS procedure but..

Design must be understood, first.

When I do the timing on S54, I can rotate the engine until the lobes of the camshaft and rocker arms do
get ware out....and the Timing bridge will land flush on the cylinder head A and E. Also the pins do drop on
its own weight. I use 2 pins not single which makes things terribly difficult...


I am thinking to make a video with my PayPal account to help people..

Regards,
Anri.